Re: Some crazy-huge rafflesianas...
 

I don't have a precise idea of the nep growers/sellers/nurseries in Malaysia. It's sad to know from you that they are not many, not experienced and they only think about making as much money as possible.

I know more about Thailand: of course they think about money (all nurseries think about profit, I never said that western nurseries only think about conservation, they sell to make money, but they have a passion for those plants, so they think about conservation too, they don't poach - I'm not sure about the meaning of what you said: "hobbysts shouldn't even exist because all plants are of wild origin".... seeds and cuttings are fine, and companies use those to provide plants to hobbists), but many of them have a passion, they try to get some experience, they read the web for information, some of them are just growers becoming nurseries, and they learn on these forums (or by me and others in person) that poaching is not the right way to do, the right way is collect seeds and cuttings, leave the mother plant where it is, and go back just to take some more seeds and cuttings, when they are finished, maybe one year later.

The SE Asian nep community is very active, I see it on this forum but especially on facebook, where lots of SE asian growers asked for my friendship, I don't know who they are, but I see that they know eachother and they know me, so if they don't appear much on the western forums it's because of an english problem. I think many of these problems (including what you mentioned, "what is going on here") could be easily improved with (or creating) a local carnivorous plant society. A local group of people that takes decision and knows how to deal with the problem locally in the best way.
With the obvious limit that men are destroying the planet anyway :)

Re: Some crazy-huge rafflesianas...
 

In one way or another, if we collect the seeds or cutting, it is also considered as poaching, mother plant don't live forever, if every one happens to go and collect cuttings and seeds, it will definitely do harm for the long term as well, not to mention an extinction of nep in a specific area, but a restriction of variance of a species in those area where seeds or cutting is collected as we know that seeds give you surprises, but basals and cuttings will only resemble the basals...as for "hobbysts shouldn't even exist because all plants are of wild origin" , all I meant is, if we were to fully practice conservation, we should not even keep nep at home, while let it be in the wild, be it being bulldozered or burn down, taking is not just an excuse, in a different point of view, it could be a form of responsibility(government of south east asia keep an eye close on deforestation or poaching, we, the one with passion carry the responsibility with proper knowledge and skill to ensure that those that died don't died in vain)

as for nursery...it is a very sad case here, all nursery regardless of western or eastern, be it malaysia, thailand, italy or africa, the root of business is money, but the way majority of malaysian nursery operate their business is very much pushing their product out without the passion, thus they treat a plant as just an product instead of knowing it as a form of flora that have requirement just like all creatures that live...Passion is just not here, they do it purely for the money...I can only wish professionalism of this industry can improve as fast as it could...

Re: Some crazy-huge rafflesianas...
 

Well, there's a big difference between 1) taking 4-5 seeds capsules or 10 cuttings from 10 different plants, and come back to the same colony after one year and 2) go to a colony of 200 plants, dig up 20 adult plants, leave the other 180 and after 6 months take another 20.
A poacher is a person who follows the way number 2.
Of course for the way number 1 we all talk about responsible seed and cutting collections, we can't go and take all the fruits we find, and cut all plants down to the base every 6 months.
If a person follows the way number 1, he can be a conservationist and at the same time he can grow all the plants he wants and spread them in cultivation. Conservationist means - as far as I know - someone who cares and works for conservation, not a person who will not even touch a plant.

But again, isn't there a group of growers in your country, that can meet and cooperate, like in other countries?

Re: Some crazy-huge rafflesianas...
 

If a group of nep enthusiasts/hobbyists think like that and visit the same habitat or locality, the mother plants will soon be cut down to the ground :p I do not see the point of returning to collect cuttings from the same plant. Shouldn't a 'conservationist' aim to propagate plants from the one cutting (of each plant) that he initially took? Or seed pods for that matter....?

Re: Some crazy-huge rafflesianas...
 

As we're all discussing and debating this issues.... acres, hundred acres and thousand acres of forest with all kinds of flora and fauna were being clear and burnt away daily (weather permitting) without leaving any traces of it's original inhabitants (flora & fauna)... :crying:

Re: Some crazy-huge rafflesianas...
 

Agree, that's the point...there are not much difference, to take a few from time to time, after all, it is same as a giving a reason to "legally poach"

My personal view on poacher and those who do mass cloning, there are no difference, one is illegal thief and one is legal thief, it's like loan shark and bank...for those who do mass cloning, they get their sources similar to poacher, just that they make you think they are clean, while in some cases, make all the finger pointed at poachers(the one that source for them)...it's just the perception, you want to see the way they want you to, or to find out what actually happens...

Re: Some crazy-huge rafflesianas...
 

Conservation issues always bring out conflicting point of views and disagreements but it is good to note that all are for the preservation of wild nepenthes populations in it's natural habitat. There's no right or wrong as long as the thought and intention are noble. The main causes of nepenthes extinction are habitats destruction and to a certain extent poaching. We can never totally eradicate the root causes lest we stand in the way of developement.

Professional nurseries can play a leading role by lowering the price of their plants to make poaching unattractive. Just imagine buying a seed grown plant of selected clone with highly desirable traits at a cheaper price than a mediocre looking poached plant. Now who will want to buy a poached plants then.....but i have my doubt this will happen any time soon though:(

Re: Some crazy-huge rafflesianas...
 

Exactely. That's already happening, all over the world, and it happened in the past. Dionaea and sarracenia would be extinst if it was for poaching, but fortunately TC and wholesale nurseries stopped poaching. Now er are left with the urban development problem. Sorry Sooxiwei, in many years in these forums, it's the first time that I hear ideas like yours, fortunately! You sound quite negative, not realistic and superficial. I mean saying that poachers and professional nurseries are the same, jesus... :)

Of course, when I said about taking cuttings and seeds, it doesn't mean that 200 growers one after the other go to take cuttings every year in the same place, come on, try to understand what I mean. That doesn't happen in the real world. These countries are huge, responsible collectors will collect responsibly, probably once in their life. Another collector, somewhere else, will do the same. At least in Thailand, there are not 500 nep collectors collecting seeds and cuttings in the same place. There are a few collectors, most of them buy from professional nurseries, that propagate (mostly, not always) plants in the greenhouse, and then there are local poachers, that are villagers who know nothing about neps, they find the plants dif them all out, sell them, and the next day they try to find something else to sell. Comparing the two, sorry again, but it's crazy.

Rob-nepnut, you live there, how is the situation with growers? Do they know each other? Can they communicate, meet, take decisions, do conservation projects? This year I'll start trying to preserve the few thai nepenthes that are in danger, for example, and we are just two people...

Re: Some crazy-huge rafflesianas...
 

Agree Angkau, good to see how every one around think:smile:

I can only hope that what happens to Dionaea and Sarrs can have a Deja Vu on Nep...

As usual, econimical difference between countries makes thought different, one struggling for 3 meals a day, one bother to have classy meal...that makes us think differently, haha

It is nice that share thought with you, an honour indeed:smile:

The reason why I would see poachers and those TC clone people as the same is that...when the whole world is pointing fingers at poachers for this and that, is there any one who look at what TC clone or seeds grown businessperson is doing on the other side? First of all, common sense, where do they get the sample of propagation and stuff? Hand pick themselves or through poachers? As I can recall, nep doesn't propagate through spores, it doesn't grow out of your garden out of a sudden...

Secondly, if they are so called responsible or conservatives, why bother to slap different prices on different species, if conservatives is part of the purpose, why bother to have price discrimination, the price could be cheap to you as the matter of economical difference between our country, it remain as expensive in our region, when that happens, isn't this trigger the nature of human - Greed, why poacher poach in the first place? If the "mass propagated" plant is of less value, who would bother to poach, but because of the price given(so called covering operation cost), to most countries in South East Asia, poaching a plant and sell it at poaching price can feed you for a day(you see the difference here? The price might just be enough for you to have a cup of Latte in Starbuck but 3 meals to south east asian)...it's just the matter of fact, not that I want to be negative or being unrealistic...GDP per capita? Screw that, a politician can be a mega rich bastard, but the majority of the people might only be having the wage of his shoe cleaner...

Thirdly, it could be the case you mention, some one from rural area without any idea of what nep is will take it because of it's difference from other plant, when TC or "responsible" cooperate introduce mass quantity of this interesting plants to the public, isn't it spark the curiosity of the people, causing an interest in something special that leads to a demand for it? Don't feel suprise when local media states that nepenthes lid does close to trap insect, when they tells you nepenthes will "hunt" for their pray, I saw those rubbish myself while my little brother tell me about what he read on the children press here... hypocritically in the science part of that press which usually don't published non sense...can you imagine what the public know about nepenthes here? Even publisher/reporter with the task of finding out and clarify issues before publishing comes out with such thing...if all these over hyping happens, do you expect the public to refrain from buying when there is a good deal(even if they have no idea how to take care of it...)

As the most people around would say, urbanization causes depletion of nep...that's not that much of the case, it's more towards farming in south east asia, both malaysia and indonesia is having lot of illegal deforestation which wipe out everything for oil palm plantation...(cash under the desk is common here...)

it is a sad case here, to know if it's negative or not realistic, drop by to live here for few years to see it yourself, other wise, it is hard to understand "how can **** happens here" when it is not suppose to...hopefully "responsible" cooperate can make a difference here as soon as possible...

it is good to shares different thought around, keep it rolls on:1thumbup:

Re: Some crazy-huge rafflesianas...
 

I will reply in the same order:

1- I think your wrong perception of professional nuseries comes from not knowing how nep propagation works at that level. I'm one of those few travelers who sends material to these nurseries. These nurseries (4-5) receive a small packet of seeds each. Half spike will be more than enough. No cuttings, no plants, only a few seeds. They make these seeds germinating. When they germinate, they select 1 to 10 or more of these seedlings, the faster, biggest, more colorful etc. They will sell all the others. they keep the 10 selected clones in vitro. They give hormones, so that these 10 seedlings develop 4-5 growing points each. They split these growing points to make clones of these selected seedlings. They go on like this untile a good number is met, then they also sell these selected clones. Some of these nurseries will let some of these selected clones grow to adult size, to also produce cuttings or eventually to cress them and produce more seeds from the best plants. Nothing to do with poachers. That's how BE, EP and Wistuba work. MT is a bit out of the cp community and I wouldn't be surprised if they work in a less "clear" way. Most nurseries in the world are distributors for BE and EP.

2-believe it or not, the fact that plants are sold for a price, high or low, doesn't mean these nurseries are rich. Believe me, I worked in one, and I spoke with some others for many years, and I'm a small seller myself. There's no way to make serious money with carnivores. These nurseries make this because they have a passion, so even if they earn just enough to live a normal life, it's fine for them. A dear friend of mine, italian, has been selling cp for more than 10 years, the only nursery here specialized in this. In one weekend they made 3000 dollars at a fair. I thought "wow". but they told me how it works for the rest of the year, it's not like that, and eventually they make just enough to live a normal life. No surprise then if when they have something very precious, they make a higher price, it's normal business.

3-I'm not sure if i understand your third point. The "closing lid" syndrome is everywhere, here too, people know nothing about carnivores, it's normal and common. Thai villagers know exactely what they are poaching, they know that they can sell those plants at the market. They will sell 20 plants to 20 people. 18 of them are average people, and the plants will die. 2 of them will be people with a passion for nepenthes. What I'm saying is that at least these 2 people, for example, could explain the poachers that collecting seeds and cuttings, they can make money for a longer time without destroying their source of money (the plants). Often these poachers just don't know how propagation works. These 2 people, together with others (thats' why I talk about a local cp society), could go to the few nurseries that specialize in Nepenthes and tell them - if they don't know already - that instead of poaching, they can propagate with seeds and cuttings, to make more plants without destroying their source of money (the plants). These 2 or more people, could decide together to grow some plants to put back in the wild, in protected areas. It's not science fiction, and it's not something that happens in rich countries, I'm again just talking about what happens in Thailand, on the other side of the border :)