How compact should potting mix be and what should be used.
Hi
How tight do you suggest packing the potting mix for Nepenthes? I always thought it had to be packed as tightly as possible. However, I read today that if pure sphagnum moss is used, it is best to have it a bit loose. See http://www.omnisterra.com/botany/cp/list/cp99all.d/0327.htm An advantage of not packing it too tightly is that a bag of sphagnum moss would fill more pots and the cost per pot would be less. However, if it is too loose, the roots may get disturbed if the plant is bumped and the potting mix may not be in good contact with the plant. If a bag or a hand-full of moist sphagnum occupies a certain volume (x) when it is compacted in a pot as tightly as possible, how many times greater a volume would you suggest it be compacted? Would double the volume of the tightest compaction possible be too loose? I was thinking of using pure coir chip for a potting mix as it is cheaper than sphagnum moss, but some people say it has problems and it can contain salt if the coconuts are grown near the sea and the coir has not been leached well with water. I would like to use pure sphagnum moss. However, it is a bit expensive if it has too be packed tightly. I have read that Perlite can be a health hazard if breathed in or handled so I prefer not to use it. A pure medium (for example 100% sphagnum moss) would have the advantage of saving the time to mix a potting mix up. Any suggestions for a good mix would be appreciated. If you suggest one, please indicate if you have tested the plant growth rates against other types of mixes. Your help will be appreciated, Regards Richard. |
Re: How compact should potting mix be and what should be used.
Richard,
You posted this in the Propagation topic, so I take it that you are asking about potting mix for propagation? Then again it might not be too different between propagation mix and cultivation mix. My two cents: I tend to keep the propagating medium very moist so cocopeat or sphagnum moss are usually very moist and thus settles a bit compact. I haven't really tried coco chips for propagation. As a rule of thumb though I do not really go out of my way to compact my potting mix, after putting them in a pot, I water them until soaking wet and then let them drain, after excess water is drained I am ready to use it. And usually it is compacted enough to hold the cutting in place. If your question is for cultivation, almost the same thing, when I repot, after I put the usually moist new potting mix, I then tap the pot on the floor a bit, put some more and then water the whole pot till soaking wet, let drain and that is it. Lastly, if potting for cultivation, please be reminded that some neps like it very loose and airy while others like it a bit more compact. ie. veitchii like loose and airy and well drained, while ampullaria likes them more compact. That is why for veitchii I use coco chips and for ampullaria I use coco peat. I have stopped using dried sphagnum moss as pure potting mix for nepenthes. Hope this helps. TTFN Arvin |
Re: How compact should potting mix be and what should be used.
Hi Arvin and other growers,
Thanks for the letter. In the last post I was referring to repotting Nepenthes plants in general and not only propagation. I could not find a more suitable category to post it under. Perhaps the forum could add a section named “Cultivation” in the Nepenthes section. I just potted my cuttings two days ago using pure sphagnum moss and I packed the moist sphagnum as tight as possible by squashing as much of it in the pot as possible and pushing it down with my fingers. However, since then I read Nepenthes like a looser mix. I would like to know some approximate figures from you and other growers on how compact the mix should be. To work this out, what you can do is fill a pot or a measuring cup with moist potting mix and compact it like you normally do after potting the plant. Then note the approximate volume. Then once you have done that, press the potting mix down with your fingers as hard as you can. Then, could you tell me approximately what percentage of the original volume it now is. Please also indicate what the potting mix you are referring to is. You may want to try and measure the compaction of some other mixes or pure mediums even if you do not use them. For example, pure sphagnum moss which I am thinking of using. It would be good to know the loosest the potting mix can possibly be compacted to produce successful growing results. This is because that would work out more economically cost wise as a bag of potting mix would then enable potting more plants. Also, it could save time as the compacting would take time. So it would be good if a number of growers on the forum could measure how much they compact their potting mixes. You could give figures for both propagating cuttings and potting mature Nepenthes plants. This could help a lot of people and save costs and produce better growing plants. Also, Arvin, why did you stop using dried sphagnum moss as pure potting mix for Nepenthes? Your help is appreciated, Regards Richard. |
Re: How compact should potting mix be and what should be used.
Richard,
I'm hoping that other members will chime in here, my experience and information is just one side, there are many sides to be had, so hopefully people will start posting. I think however that you posted this in the wrong place... you should have posted it in the main nepenthes topic here: https://forum.petpitcher.net/forumdisplay.php?f=6 that is where general discussion about nepenthes is, scroll down and you will see all the different topics, the first few ones you see in that page are forums like propagation. Maybe the admins can help us move the topic later, meantime I will reply. 1. Gosh your request sounds like you are trying to make a scientific study of the compactness of potting mix. Which is all good, but unfortunately I don't think I'll have time to do it, because what you are being like is a Baker... very precise, while I am like a chef... all by taste and feel. Meaning, I don't really study the compactness, I just do what I do as mentioned above. If after soaking and draining the mix I find that the pot needs more potting mix, then I add more then soak again and drain again :) Also as mentioned, different species live in different substrate in the wild, some live in clay like soil, some are epiphytes, some in bogs. So again it depends on the species. 2. Why did I stop using Sphagnum moss? Well first of all they are hard to find in my area (Philippines) very difficult to buy from stores, so I am using them only for bog plants, VFTs, droseras. However that is not the only reason. I find that if I am careless and forget to water the plant or plants, the sphagnum moss can dry out and when they dry out they need to be soaked again or else they tend to not be able to retain moisture. I have killed a plant because I let the mix dry out too much and didn't know about it, so even if I was watering the water would quickly drain out. So now I usually put even my neps under a water tray... and if I do this with Spag moss, the mix will be too wet and boggy and not ideal or nepenthes either. So I use now cocopeat and coco chips, if the species likes a more moist and compact mix, more cocopeat in the mix or pure cocopeat. If it likes airy mix, then more cocochips. Sometimes I include pumice rock in the mix too. Lastly please understand this is just how I prefer to pot my neps, I don't claim that this is the best or ultimate way to pot neps, but the system works for my gardening habbits and situation :) TTFN Arvin |
Re: How compact should potting mix be and what should be used.
How compact is compact?? I would gauge this by how well drain the media is when you water it, you all should know what I'm talking about right?
Only a handful of neps species (all L/L) preferred (or adpatable) to water soaking media and those can also be grown equally well in well drain media. Most other neps prefer media that can hold moisture and well drain (more to do with giving circulation to the media and root zone). Try to introduce some other potting mix that's chunky (1-2 cm) like perlite, coco chips, orchid bark, charcoal and etc when mixing LFS to "open" up the media. With this, you'll be able to use less LFS. If you want the media to retain more water, you just adjust the ratio of LFS (use more) or mix it with peat or coco peat. Myself use mostly inorganic media like coarse sand, burnt red clay (laterite) and perlite/pumice with up to 70-80% of the media composition. The other 20-30% will be mainly organic based media like coco chip, coco peat and LFS (to be use mainly to increase water retention of the media). For hanging pot, since most inorganic media like sand and clay is heavy by density, you can increase the ratio of less dense inorganic media like perlite and pumice to lessen the weight of the pot for hanging. Same effect can be archieve by increasing the ratio of coco chips but please becareful with using a lot of coco chips in your media if you're growing your plants outdoor in a tropical country that may experience seasonal monsoon rain... There's no "perfect" media that you can get by following other's mixing ratio and type of media... you will need to play around/adjust your watering frequency, growing condition, type of pots and various other factors to strike a balance to get that "perfect mix" that will just only work for you and you only... it's magical. *biggrin2* Hope this help. |
Re: How compact should potting mix be and what should be used.
Hi
Another way to measure compaction is to put the loose potting medium into a pot or measuring container in as loose as manner as possible. Then measure what the volume is. Then once you have noted that, compact the medium like you normally would when potting the plant. Then measure the volume again. Please let me know what percentage of the original volume the medium is compacted to if you measure using this method. If the medium does not have to be compacted much, pure sphagnum moss may be the best way to go as it holds the moisture and would mean the plants need less watering which would save time and water. Also, a pure medium would save time having to mix many things together I am not sure if anyone has proven that other mixes produce better growth rates in Nepenthes. If so, please let me know. Also, NepNut, what do you mean by "LFS"? Your help is appreciated Regards Richard. |
Re: How compact should potting mix be and what should be used.
Now I remember also one other reason why I stopped using Sphagnum moss (pure) as potting mix. As Nepnut mentioned in his last sentence, it all depends on your watering habits, if you water often or have no time to water often. etc.
With Sphagnum moss, if I water often, or put a water tray it gets too moist and sometimes even become quite anaerobic... you can smell the stink. So I stopped using it. My style is to use water tray with just shallow water on the tray, coz I don't get to water often. At least that works for me. If Sphagnum moss is always wet or if you are always watering, you will surely find that it compacts over time. Another thing, cocopeat... is probably a bit more environmentally friendly or at least more sustainable than sphagnum moss. TTFN Arvin |
Re: How compact should potting mix be and what should be used.
Hi Arvin and those interested,
I heard that coco chip is better than coco peat as it allows more air in the soil. I also read you need to be careful it is not sourced from trees near the sea unless it has been well leached with pure water as otherwise it can contain salt. I remember Adrian Slack who wrote a large detailed book on carnivorous plants said to never water Nepenthes using the tray method. However, your conditions are probably different. I was not thinking of using a tray for Nepenthes. Instead I planned to water from the top about once a week in average weather conditions. I read a tray watering method is best for other carnivorous plants. Pure sphagnum may then be best for me for Nepenthes. If you come across any proof that other things are better, please let me know. Your help is appreciated Regards Richard. |
Re: How compact should potting mix be and what should be used.
Hi Richard,
LFS is simply an abbreviation for "Long Fiber Sphagnum". I see one problem the way you measure the volume this way. If you're using only LFS, then it's ok. But if you're mixing media of different weight and sizes, it's won't be accurate since every susbtance had it's own density. What I meant to see how compact a media is by looking at how well drain the media is, it's simply to see how fast the water will drain out of the pot when you water it (not scientific but fast and practicle). If you water the pot and the pot just flush out from the bottom right away, then it's consider very well drain and not compact. If you water the pot and it took 30 seconds to 1 minute to see the water slowly trickles down, then it can be consider compact media with high water rentention quality. If I were given only 1 choice to choose, I will always go with LFS as the preferred media. Due to other issues like Arvin pointed out using LFS, I would like to cut down the usage if possible. I think most people woould agree LFS is the best media to be use for most CPs but the problem is the high cost for good quality LFS, mainly originated from New Zealand. That's why people are trying to find alternatives, which is more sustainable and cheap... Coco media is actually a by product from the coco related industry and it's available abundantly in most tropical countries. Another issue with using 100% LFS is when you grow your plants outdoor without shelter from rain in tropical countries. If it's monsoon season, you will get non stop raining for days, the 100% LFS media will be too wet and cause rotting in roots. That's why I have to mix the media and use pots with good drainage and ventilation so that excess water in the pot will easily drained out and evaporated. There's no right or wrong choice to use what type of media but more importantly what media that suits your gorwing environment and your habit. The only concern I have of using organic based media, it's the fact that sooner or later, it'll break down. But maybe that's just me because I'm lazy... or maybe the thought of repotting hundreds of pots every 6 months to 9 months it's just too much .... LOL You mention you planned to water only once a week? I'm guessing you're keep your neps in an enclosed area? |
Re: How compact should potting mix be and what should be used.
Hi
Yes, I grow my Nepenthes in a greenhouse so that the rain does not water them. I thought pure sphagnum may be the best and safest way to go. However, you could still give an approximate figure for the compaction rate of a potting mix by mixing it up first and putting the mix in a pot loose and then measure the volume and then compact it like you normally do when you pot your plants. Then you would measure the volume again. That would give a reasonable indication. Any figures would be appreciated. Do you know anyone that has used polystyrene foam in the potting mix as asked in my other question on the forum? Your help will be appreciated, Regards Richard. |
Re: How compact should potting mix be and what should be used.
LOL I still don't understand how you guys can have so much idea to type out...I only red threeeeee and I'm already dizzzzyyyyy
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Re: How compact should potting mix be and what should be used.
Hi Richard,
Yes, I have heard good results from others using chopped up polystryrene and flora foam as substitutes. However I never try it myself. |
Re: How compact should potting mix be and what should be used.
Hi NepNut and those interested,
It would be good if the plants grow as well in a polystyren mix as they would with a Pertlte mix because I heard that Perlite can be hazardous if breathed in or handled. Also polystyren is free and a waste product so it would be better for people and the environment if people used it instead of perlite. Are you suggesting that the people have used polystyrene for years without any adverse affects on the plants? Please let me know what you find out about it or of anyone with experiences with it. Regards Richard. |
Re: How compact should potting mix be and what should be used.
Hmmm, don't we have a separate topic about artificial or inorganic potting mix... found it. It's here:
https://forum.petpitcher.net/showthre...rganic+potting I am not a fan of the use of styrofoam as potting medium, I bought some neps that have been potted in cocopeat but under is actually styrochunks, half an inch or so in size, that is why the medium would dry up quickly and thus eventually killed those plants that were not repotted after being bought. That said, I imagine that if you chop them up or shred them down to bead form, maybe they will act the same was as perlite, except that they do not absorb water, so that they will prevent the potting mix to become too compact. Me? I'd rather use clay/hydro balls though. TTFN Arvin |
Re: How compact should potting mix be and what should be used.
One thing to remember is that most plants have roots that like air. Roots like to grow on moist surfaces that are also airy. You might have had the experience of growing a plant (not necessarily Nepenthes) in a pot placed on a wall or some solid surface. After growing it there for some time, and if you picked up the pot, you might have noticed a mass of roots growing outside the pot on the surface of the wall. That's because the surface of the wall underneath the pot stays moist, and there's some air between the bottom of the pot and the surface of the wall.
The growing mix should have spaces between the bits of whatever is in it (peat moss, perlite, LFS, coco peat, etc.). When you squeeze a handful of the growing mix in your hand and then relax your grip on it, the growing mix should fall apart. The components of the growing mix are all low in nutrients, so what goes into the mix doesn't matter as much as whether the combination allows the roots to breathe. |
Re: How compact should potting mix be and what should be used.
Hi JK and those interested
Thanks for the letter. If we knew what is the best percentage to compact the potting medium by a pure medium like pure sphagnum moss could be used and it should have sufficient air spaces without having to mix anything else with it. Vincent mentioned vermiculite could also be used. What potting medium or mix do you use? If you put the damp medium or potting mix into the container in as loose manner as possible, approximately what percentage of the original volume would you reduce the volume to when you press it down while potting the plant? Your help is appreciated, Regards Richard. |
Re: How compact should potting mix be and what should be used.
Hi Richard,
From my experience when dealing with using pure SM (sphagnum moss) as media, after sometime, the media will get compacted by itself. It doesn't matter how "loose" you pack the media originally, it'll get compacted as you water it. That's why it's recommended you mix with other inert media to keep it from compacting and keeping it "loose". If you still prefer to use pure SM as the only media, the only other way I see to avoid compaction of SM without the use of other media, you have to water it gently, as little as possible (something like drip watering system) until the media become moist, then the original compact ratio should hold and maintain (in theory). This is however, will be time comsuming. To help increase the space between SM, you can try using the whole strand of original unchopped SM, that might help to create some void in the SM media (again, in theory). Using chopped SM as the only media will create a very tight media as the surface volume of chopped SM is much greater thus occupying more volume without leaving much empty space. I agree with jk, circulation (both air and water) is very imporatant to nep particularly those intermediates and H/L varieties. I think that should be the priority. I sincerely hope you can find your "perfect" media... good luck :smile: |
Re: How compact should potting mix be and what should be used.
Hi NepNut and those interested,
Thanks for the letter. I would use whole strand or uncut sphagnum and water with a hose with a gentle pressure. From what you say, I can see a problem with not packing the potting mix or media at least to a point and letting the watering compact it. If you did that, you would pot the plant and have the pot filled with the potting media to the level you want. Then after a few waterings, the level of the media would go down and the volume of the media would reduce. That would mean that the amount of media in the pot will not be the amount you want and the pot would be no where near full of media which would mean that there would not be as much volume in the media for the roots to grow as you originally planned. Therefore, wouldn't it be best to compact it a certain amount during potting to avoid this happening? I would think from what has been said it would be best to compact the media as least as possible, but still compact it enough so that the volume would not significantly change after the plant has been watered several times. Perhaps, what could be done is that a potting mix or media could be put into a pot in as loose a manner as possible. Then the pot could be watered for a long time with a hose with the pressure that you would normally use. You may need to leave the water run for an hour or so to simulate how the volume will change over years of watering. Then you would see by what percentage the volume of the media would be reduced by. Then, when potting plants you would press the media to reduce it by the same percentage. This could be an accurate way to calculate it so long as no other long term factors cause the volume to reduce. For example many separate waterings over years may have a different affect than one long watering. What do you think? Your help is appreciated, Regards Richard. |
Re: How compact should potting mix be and what should be used.
Hi Richard,
That's why I prefer to mix media to maintain it's volume because 1) minimal media compaction unlike using 100% SM 2) they comes with all different size and weight thus help in "open" up the media 2) inorganic media takes much longer time to breakdown (if ever) thus maintaining the "opening" 3) organic media like coco chips, orchid bark and etc have larger dimension thus will not be broken down as fast as SM. It's hard to quantify how media will compact over time and it's volume reduced as it involves many factors (nothing is constant when it comes to nature/biology *biggrin2*). I don't think you can measure what will happend to a media only with 1 watering even for hours to compare that to natural compaction and breakdown. You have to test it out and experiement to see how all this will turn out for you and your neps for a longer period of time (> 6 months minimum). As I said, what worked for me doesn't mean it might work for you and vice versa. There's no stopping organic media from being naturally broken down. Factors like utilization of fertilizer, tempreature, break down by microbes (including algae and fungus), growing environment and minerals/ nutrients content in water will ultimately affect the rate of SM being break down thus reducing your media overtime (might happend as soon as few months). That's the fact you have to accept and you'll need to repotted the media from time to time. Not unless you keep your plants in a 100% sterile environment... :smile: |
Re: How compact should potting mix be and what should be used.
Hi
A mix with equal parts Coir chip and Sphagnum moss may be good provided there is no salt or other impurities in the Coir. There may be a simple way to test to see if there is any salt in the Coir. If you know of any that can detect the small levels of salt that could be bad for Nepenthes, please let me know. Vermiculite may be a good way to go. Vincent had good results with it. Has anyone tried a media of pure Vermiculite? Your help is appreciated, Regards Richard. |
Re: How compact should potting mix be and what should be used.
Hi Richard,
The simplest way to check whether the source of coir chip that you obtain have salt content, just test it with a hydrometer. You can get it from a pet store that sell marine fishes and accessories. Hydrometer is use to check the salinity of the water. I have been using bags and bags of coir chips, so far no ill effect as the source of coir chips is clean of salt and mainly used for horticulture purposes. |
Re: How compact should potting mix be and what should be used.
Vermiculite I have those and sometimes mix them, I have not tried pure vermiculite myself. I would only do it for cuttings not for long term use.. I think they will not support a full grown plant.
I remember there was a post about coco coir and a system of soaking and rinsing them and even putting some kind of chemical to allow the salt to be rinsed out... sorry no time to do the search but it should be in petpicher forum. Me? I do not worry too much about salt in Coir, why? Well I do soak my coir, but also because I know that there are lots of neps that can tolerate slight minerals, there are many that can be seen in limestone cliffs and right above the sea. But we shouldn't generalize. I would say though that VFTs, Sarracenias and Droseras might be way more sensitive to trace salts than nepenthes. TTFN Arvin |
Re: How compact should potting mix be and what should be used.
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