Aldro propagation
 

Would like to ask what is the best way to propagate Aldrovanda? I imagine that it'll be through cuttings, but what is the safest way to do cutting, how many leaf "nodes"?

Safest meaning, to be almost sure that either half will not die.

TTFN
Arvin

Re: Aldro propagation
 

It will branch and divide into more plants. That is the safest way but you could also try cutting your plant into several pieces, each an inch or two long.

Re: Aldro propagation
 

Arvin, When my Aldrovanda was alive, they multiply like mad when the condition is right- enough light and food. Don't bother cutting.

Re: Aldro propagation
 

Well.....Just separate them like alcran when your aldro is big and mature(info not from me)...I'm still confused how can people grow aldro in water without having a single algae build up.

Ken

Re: Aldro propagation
 

Thanks guys, okay I will NOT touch my Aldros then :) They are still 2 and 3 inches long, and the bottom ends would die and float off. I have an Utricularia Vulgaris that has branched, but the problem is that it suddenly disappeared, not sure if stolen by a family member or eaten by pests (I saw a rat in the area).

Ken, I am lucky that my Tubs have not had any Algae at all. I am not an expert but what I noticed with the tubs/ponds that I have are:

1. Lots of plants, I of course heeded the advice of the experts and got me some Grasses (monocotes), which is now thriving.

2. Not much fish, only maybe 5 medakas (like guppies) and a few shrimps.

3. No fertilization, except I do inject CO2 from time to time.

I have a bare tub that I am trying to culture some daphnia in, it had clear water like others, but recently I dumped a lot of spoiled fish food, in a matter of 2 days, the water turned green. One word Nutrients. I am almost sure that by dumping fish food in the tub, I polluted the water with nutrients thus Algae thrived.

TTFN
Arvin

Re: Aldro propagation
 

I hope Rich can chime in here. Rich would appreciate your comment about the following:

1. My Aldros has started to branch out, well one of them.
2. However the bottom end would continue to of course die out and float away.
3. I am not yet ready to do any cuttings yet but I have an observation:

I noticed that when Bactrus and Lim sent me Aldros, all of the plants died, except those that has growth tips. The 2 surviving plants that I have are the only 2 growth tips that survived during transport, they were pathetically small then, half an inch long or so. But they survived and now they are a couple of inches long and thriving. But those that didn't have growth tips just eventually died, even if they were still green.

I think that maybe Adrovandas do not do well when cut in the middle. What I mean is if I have a strand of say 1 foot long Aldro and I cut it in half. I have a feeling that the bottom half, the one without the growth tip might eventually die, while the top half with the growth tip will continue to grow. I am pretty sure though that the longer the bottom half is, the better chances of it surviving and growing.

I am not sure if there are any Aldro growers out there that has may plants to spare and willing to try an experiment.

I guess what I am asking is how many internodes or leaf whorles does it take to ensure that an Aldro cutting will survive?

Lastly, I have finally seen my Aldros catch daphnia, and because I do have snails, I often see Aldro traps that have caught snails. Often the shell is the only thing left inside. So yes I do agree with Rich, that Snails, shrimps, etc. do play a role in Aldro life.

TTFN
Arvin

Re: Aldro propagation
 

Hey guys! Glad to see there's still some interest in these plants!

It really is NOT easy to grow them in small artificial containers. I've had a miserable time of trying to do that myself over the last 25+ years! They really are part of a complex symbiotic community, and without the proper balance involving all of the constituent members, (companion plants, small snails, shrimp and other crustaceans, copepods, Daphna, even small worms like tubiflex, and insect larvae), it's doomed to fail. When these things ARE in place, they grow faster than any terrestrial CP, and even faster than most Utrics! They will grow from 1.2 to 3 axils per day, and double or triple their growth points every few days, often doubling their entire population every week or less! But this is based upon how much it eats, it has a direct response to the presence of unlimited food by a burst of growth, and in response to an unlimited source of food, it will undergo unlimited, and unbounded exponential growth. The plant has no roots, so that the ONLY way it has to take in those nutrients is by its traps, and how much they eat!

However, there are several other factors involved: the plant requires large amounts of CO2 for photsynthesis, and often releases the excess nitrogenous matter that it cannot use for its own immediate needs, and this is provided by the close proximity of large monocot plants that are heavy nitrogen feeders, and release large amounts of CO2 from their roots by respiration in responce to the increase in nurishment, so that it is a fully reciprocol (mutualism) symbiotic relationship.

Then there's the issue of cleaning out the spent carcasses in the older traps; this is provided by the presence of small snails and copepods which also graze on any filamentous algae that attempt to attach onto the Aldrovanda. The Aldrovanda actually serves an an effective predator in order to keep the population of the zooplankon from undergoing catastrophic cycles of population explosions and crashes, yet another amazing symbiotic relationship.

Again, these nitrogenous compounds must me removed quickly by the roots of their companion plants, otherwise, algae will sieze the oppertunity and quickly overwhelm everything. The zooplankton community are generally algae feeders as well, so that is part of this balance. It's NOT the chemistry of the water, but this community of symbiotic creatures that makes all the difference. Some areas of the ponds have a very conspicuous presence of clay, and the water tests neutral (pH=7.0) to slightly alkaline! In these clay pits, they are often found growing in very shallow puddles, no deeper than a few inches, if that, directly above a large mat of tubiflex worms dancing directly under them!

Water depth is always very shallow, never any deeper than just a few inches, "ankle deep" anything more than "knee deep" is too much for them; but this is where the population density of the zooplankon community is the highest and most concentrated and where they are the closest to the roots of their companion monocot plants.

If you try to grow them in some large container, I would suggest that you set one up with some clay, tubiflex worms, and several large grass-like plants such as cattails (Typha sp), Papyra, or other Juncus sp., or similar plants so that it looks like you're growing these plants first, but upon closer inspection, one might happen to notice that there are also some Aldrovanda strands that just happens to be growing around the bases of those plants as well.

I hope this helps! In a few months, my ponds will thaw out and I will have access to millions of them again! :)

Re: Aldro propagation
 

Thanks for replying Rich,

Of course there is still interest in Aldrovandas!

Hey you didn't answer my question though, would you be willing to help with the experiment once your aldros thawed? I just wonder how short a cutting will adros allow so that the bottom end cutting (the half that doesn't have the growth tip) will survive. Say 1 inch bottom cuttings, would these live?

Of course it would be nice if I can get a 1 to 3 axil per day growth, but as of now they are not growing that fast, I will experiment with more food, etc. but afraid to do so yet coz I don't want to upset what balance I have now.

I do have cattails on my small plastic pond, have a lot of roots sticking out of the pot already. My aldros are allowed to just float on the surface of the water, water depth is about 4 inches deep.

TTFN
Arvin

Re: Aldro propagation
 

Sure, I'll help with this experiment in any way I can! ;) The problem, I find with using the lower parts of the stem is that the older traps have so much prey in them, that if the detritus feeders (small snails, shrimp etc.) don't pull out those spent carcasses, they can get hit with filamentous algae. Otherwise, any healthy section of stems should produce new plants quite easily.

Glad to hear that you have a good crop of large monocot companion plants for them, you might notice that the healthiest strands of Aldrovanda are those that are actually tangled up with, and commingled with the exposed roots of these plants. Phragmites produces busts of roots just below the surface in areas that are a little deeper, and the Aldrovanda that find themselves anchored in these mats grow very vigorously. - Rich

Re: Aldro propagation
 

Thanks Rich,

I will try to post a photo of my tub soon, and yes I did remember what you said about the roots some time ago, so I actually wrapped my adros in the roots that were long enough to reach the surface, might consider letting the water level drop some more during the summer, we'll see.

It is actually not that important for me now to know if bottom cuttings will survive, specially coz one of the two strands I have, has already branched out, still I think it would be a nice thing to know how long to do aldro cuttings to ensure survival. Sort of like how many internodes would you do cuttings with depending on species. Then again for Nepenthes I usually make sure I have 2 or 3 internodes just in case, a friend of mine is so good at it, he can do 1 node cuttings! Though I would be surprised if a one or two axil cutting from an aldro will survive.

TTFN
Arvin

Re: Aldro propagation
 

One node cuttings will work on Aldrovanda too! Just cut the tip off, right after the last axial of opened traps, and cut the rest into one or two axial pieces, and the healthy ones will grow a new bud. ;)

Here are some pic's from previous years of one pond; notice that the water depth is less than 6 inches deep, generally only about 4 inches deep, if that! Notice, there isn't a bit of algae on ANY of them!

http://i156.photobucket.com/albums/t...drovanda07.jpg

http://i156.photobucket.com/albums/t...densegrass.jpg

http://i156.photobucket.com/albums/t...anda/grass.jpg

http://i156.photobucket.com/albums/t...a/Carexbed.jpg

http://i156.photobucket.com/albums/t...vanda_07_8.jpg

http://i156.photobucket.com/albums/t...vanda_07_9.jpg

http://i156.photobucket.com/albums/t...anda_07_21.jpg

http://i156.photobucket.com/albums/t...a/bymyfeet.jpg

http://i156.photobucket.com/albums/t...roUstriata.jpg
- Rich

Re: Aldro propagation
 

http://i113.photobucket.com/albums/n.../pond014-1.jpg

This is my Aldro pond! Finally was able to upload photos. :)

There are some Utricularia Vulgaris and U. Gibba (?) in there, the Gibba I am not 100% sure yet if it is Gibba.

Re: Aldro propagation
 

Aldrovanda never cease to amaze me..........too bad I stay in a condominium. Did you grow your not-confirmed gibba there or it grew by itself, Arvin? Your ponds are still massive and great, Rich!

Cheers

Re: Aldro propagation
 

Edward, Actually if you have a place where your pond can get a lot of sunlight you should be able to keep aldros in a condo, heck artificial light should also help. If you are a big fan, why not get say a 50 gallon aquarium and then put some monocotes and just fill the tank half full of water then put enough light, etc. etc.

I really should take a photo fo the gibba? so that I can get it IDed by the members, the gibba is actually probably the first or second CP that my brother and I got, they were from our planted tank days. Not sure where these are from but I know that there is a lake 3 hours south which has them and we got some from there before. They do not seem to flower though so not too sure if the are gibba. Anways will try to take photos and send for ID.

The Gibba(?) is that mat at 1 oclock of the pond.

TTFN
Arvin

Re: Aldro propagation
 

Actually, you don't need a complicated setup or a large pond to grow Aldrovanda. I didn't initially believe it myself and tried a few dfferent setups(some complicated, some relatively large, some both) with only moderate success. Now I've got Aldrovanda which isn't only growing, but its actually winning its battle with algae in an originally algae infested container. Its just the Aldrovanda, the algae, water and that's it! All in a couple of plastic "da-pao" containers!

Edward, I'd say as long as you can find a nice sunny spot that's as large as a "da-pao" container, you're good to go! :)

Re: Aldro propagation
 

Hi Infurita may we know or can you post what is a "Da Pao" container?

One thing though, my pond is actually relatively free of algae, I prefer this than having it infested by Algae because at least I can see and enjoy my Aldros :) My pond unfortunately is infested by Hydra, that is why I can't really keep a healthy population of moina/daphnia. My pond is technically not complicated, the only thing that I really do is to inject CO2 every other day, but that is I think not even necessary, it just gives me something to do. :) Water my terrestrials then inject CO2 then go to work :) hahahaha!

TTFN
Arvin

Re: Aldro propagation
 

Oh, a "da pao" container is one of those small plastic containers they pack food into for you at the hawker centre when you want take away :P

You've got hydra? man, I got to get me some of that...tho keeping them alive..., that's going to be a tricky one...

Re: Aldro propagation
 

Eh? You like them? They are considered Pests by me because they catch daphnia and also even small fry. Also they are really difficult for me to get rid of without totally drying up the tub, which I don't want because the Aldros are doing nicely and don't want to disturb them. Plus though they are canrivorous they are not plants and I just want to get rid of them.

As for Da Pao containers, I feel that they might be too small, though you have proved that they can work for you.

TTFN
Arvin

Re: Aldro propagation
 

I would like to report that I was sucessful in doing a 3 node/axial cutting, and it has now sprouted a new growth point. Again confirming what Rich said that as long as you give them ideal conditions they will do very well. I will observe the 3 node cutting some more because for some reason the new growth point is at the bottom axial, that might die off soon, wondering what will happen then. :) Becoming very sunny and hot here now and looks like the aldros are enjoying it. Also observing more and more very small snails getting caught and eaten by the Aldros!

TTFN
Arvin

Re: Aldro propagation
 

Arvin, I'm so glad to hear that you have small snails living with your Aldrovanda! They serve a multi-purpose function and are essential for a healthy population of these plants. They actively graze on the algae that attempt to anchor onto the Aldrovanda, and also are vital in pulling out the spent prey in the older traps (which otherwise would get loaded with filamentous algae), as well as providing an occasional meal for the plants, and also help contribute to the CO2 within close proximity to the strands. Perhaps you have some copepods as well, along with other small crustacians along with live tubiflex worms and Daphnia. If you look at a healthy strand of Aldrovanda under a disecting microscope, you will notce that it's a floating zoo, full of life crawling all over the leaves, and up and down the strands, from small insect larvea, (including mosquito, and damsel fly) to snails, and crustacians, and several small worms.

Good job! and Well done! - Rich :1thumbup:

Re: Aldro propagation
 

They actually grow like wheels!Ok,I know that I'm a bit weird.I usually ignore the aldro part of the forum(a bit harsh to the aldro lovers ,don't cry and I'm sorry.I actually like them now)Nice plants rich!

Re: Aldro propagation
 

Can they grow in Aquariums?Because they would look nice in it.

Re: Aldro propagation
 

They like stagnant water or slow flowing water.

Re: Aldro propagation
 

What is stagnant water?Not moving?

Re: Aldro propagation
 

That is the idea. Pond like enviroment or slow flowing stream like what Rich has shown in the pictures he posted. The plant' don't root. It simply floats in water. So if you put in tank with filtration system, the poor fellow will be churned and broken up. The plant is delicate you see.

Think Arvin and Jonathan be better at answering this.

Re: Aldro propagation
 

They also have a need for CO2, and an aquarium set up, with moving water, would cause any CO2 to be quickly dispersed, and released into the atmosphere. They use CO2 for photosynthesis, and will quickly go into decline if they don't get enough. That's why companion plants are so important to them, especially those plants that have massive root systems, that emit a constant source of CO2 by the respiration of their roots. They also quickly absorb and assimilate the excess nitrogenous matter given off by the Aldrovanda, a reciprocal beneficial symbiotic relationship. Without these plants, algae will quickly take advantage of the available nitrogenous matter, and overwhelm them. Small snails, copepods, and the entire zooplankon community also help groom the algae from attacking the Aldrovanda, and even pull out the spent carcasses out from the older traps before the algae gets to them as well, as becoming part of the menu.

A fish tank is also too small for Aldrovanda, although some people have grown them with a lot of work, and expense to artificially pump in CO2, provide high intensity mecuric halide lamps, and change the water at least once or twice a week with fresh pond water to replenish the zooplankton. In a pond, when they're in peak growth, they will double their apical growth points every week, (exponential reproduction) and in a few weeks become thousands of plants that need CO2 and food. - Rich

Re: Aldro propagation
 

Forgot Rich is the original Grandmaster in Aldrovanda cultivation. Yup, CO2 is very important. I think Arvin posted something in Pitcherplants.proboards.com forum. Link:
http://www.pitcherplants.proboards.c...ay&thread=7553

Marvin, look closely at Rich's pictures, they are in a big area. I grew mine in a 2' by 4' outdoor tank. At first everything hunky dory, Aldro grew well and multiplied. I forgot about the n2o and n3o builtup and eventually algae took over.

Piscesilim also had some Aldro in fish tank. Note that he is an aquascaping expert too. His 4' tank has co2, artificial lighting, some excellent filtration system. His Aldro too went to mulch heaven.

Re: Aldro propagation
 

I want to grow aldro too.

Re: Aldro propagation
 

What is n3o and n2o?:spinning::spinning:As you know I'm just a year six student although I like reading about chemistry like co2,no2,o2.....

Re: Aldro propagation
 

Bactrus meant Nitrates and Nitrites, which are produced by fishes and other organisms, I forgot which one is then broken down by nitrobacter (nitrogen bateria) into another form, anyway it's one and the other, but if you have lots of both then algae will come in.

I think that if you have some monocote plants and other higher plant forms, they will use up the N2O and N3O and so prevent algae.

I have some filamentous algae in my aldro pond right now, but they are under control, they are the type that I can just physically take off. They are mixed with my U. Gibbas. Anyways they do not bother my aldros.

TTFN
Arvin

Re: Aldro propagation
 

So Aldros need lots of CO2 la.

Re: Aldro propagation
 

Let me confuse you a bit more, it's been a month since I last injected CO2 into my pond, and there is not much difference! I do think that CO2 injection helps promote faster growth on most aquatic plants, not just Aldros. If your Aldros are not yet established I think it will not hurt to inject some CO2.

TTFN
Arvin

Re: Aldro propagation
 

Marvin, in aquarium CO2 is a knife good and bad !
If you use too much alga will grow a lot and kill the plants.
If you use too low it won't effect to the plants.

Also light are imfortant too !

Re: Aldro propagation
 

The problem with injecting CO2 into an artificial container or an aquarium is that it out-gasses very quickly, especially in warm water, which Aldrovanda prefers, like some opened carbonated beverage going flat in a few hours in a hot summer day. The best thing is to have the Aldrovanda growing closely with the roots of companion plants where those roots emit a constant source of CO2 from respiration, and absorb the excess nutrients that the Aldrovanda gives off. They also need to feed, and a healthy population of zooplankton is essential for Aldrovanda to thrive; small snails also need to be factored in as they will pull out the spent prey from the older traps before they get loaded with algae. - Rich

Re: Aldro propagation
 

I of course have to agree with Rich... after all I took all his advice and am happy with my plants now. One big advantage of keeping the mentioned companion plants is that you don't have to deal with CO2 tanks, maintenance, cost, etc.

Oh, I added Pennyworts (Centella asiatica) in the pond, not sure if they are Monocotes or not, I hope they are. But the main monocote companion plants are the horsetail and the cattails in pots.

Aldro propag
 

Ive had great success propagating with flower stalks. Nearly every piece of stalk Ive ever tried has hit. I keep it in my terrarium under very bright light on a 16 hour photoperiod and I just stick it in peat moss in the same way it was growing out of the plant flower end up. If Im planning on using the stalk to propagate, I snip the it when its about an inch or two. I usually only do one piece per stalk, but I have done two or three pieces when the stalk gets longer than Ive intended and those pieces have struck as well, but they take longer.

Aldro propagation
 

It is well known that proper rooting presents the greatest problem in vegetative propagation of Jatropha plants. Why is only propagation by stem cutting alone practiced among all horticultural practices? Are there any other methods that could prove effective? How could rooting be improved? Can science come to the rescue?