In search of Nepenthes thorelii
 

Hello friends,

I'm writing from Vietnam.
I just spent the last 3 days with Charles Clarke looking after the true Nepenthes thorelii after some pictures appeared on the forum in last november:
http://www.cpukforum.com/forum/index.php?showtopic=34599[/url]
We only had a rough idea of the plants location as the Vietnamese kids who found the plants refused to help me to locate and study them.
After 2 days of investigation, Charles and I managed to find the exact location that the Vietnamese kids showed on their (deleted) pictures (Can I post them again?).
A wonderful swamp with a big population of Nepenthes mirabilis and Drosera and Utricularia everywhere. I never saw such a magnificent population of crimson Drosera indica before.
This must have been the place. After a few hours of research, Charles talked to the only familly of villagers who lived near this swamp and they told that a few months ago, some Vietnamese from HoChiMinh came and dug all the plants.... That's why we found nothing.
They might be some seedlings left but we didn't saw them.
I have to say that I feel angry at the moment and quite sad. These things happen - charles did make the analogy with Nepenthes aristolochioides.
So is N. thorelii extinct?
I don't think so. It must grow in another swamp but as the sprecies grow near human lowland habitations, it will be very difficult to find a place that hasn't been turned into a paddy field in the last century
Tomorrow, Charles and I will visit one of the type locations.
Wish us good luck.

Francois.

Re: In search of Nepenthes thorelii
 

Best of luck in your search Francois! So sad that wholesale poaching like this happens. Let's see if anyone tries to unload them on ebay, or one of the forums. These kids could have been heroes in the CP community, and really made a name for themselves, but went for the quick opportunist cashing in on them instead; so sad on so many levels. - Rich

Re: In search of Nepenthes thorelii
 

I sincerely hope you guys will rediscover the true N. thorelii... It's a race against time from development, lost of habitat and over collection. Wish you and Charles all the best !!

Re: In search of Nepenthes thorelii
 

Well I know something about them but....

Re: In search of Nepenthes thorelii
 

Hello,

I have checked, with Charles Clarke, some of the type locations today.
There is nothing left as far as we could see but plantations, paddy fields, heveas and houses everywhere. If the species still grows there -very unlikely- it must be in a handful of square meters that will be one day or another wiped out by humans activities.
I have a few locations to check (alone this time, Charles had to go). Let's hope.
Cheers,
Francois.

Re: In search of Nepenthes thorelii
 

Hi Francois,
Very sad news... but there's still hope. If all else fail, try to look for people that are selling wild collected neps, that's probably the only chance you have of locating N. thorelii if you can't find them in the wild. Good luck.

Re: In search of Nepenthes thorelii
 

sometimes locating and finding neps can be frustrating. I remembereed the first time when we were searching for northiana we search aimlessly even with info from the locals. Infos of location and datas of pitchers were inaccurate and misleading of words they heard from other hunters and gatherers.

Due to overcollection northiana is becoming rare along the easy and common trails. we widen our search from all the possible existing routes, routes carve out by hunters,gatherers and gold prospectors. we only managed to find the first northiana on our 3rd field trip.

I believed somewhere thorelii still exist. They have been around before human encroach into their territory. with human activities, opening up of land for devp and agriculture pockets of their population will still exist. Extra days will be needed to search around.

Re: In search of Nepenthes thorelii
 

Robert maybe you can speak to TranMinh..He knows something about them..I dare not speak anything because it was TranMinh who told me that..Classified Information..:tongue:

Re: In search of Nepenthes thorelii
 

Hi,

Thanks for the support guys.
Today, I met one of the poachers... Don't ask me how I managed to restrain myself...

All the thorelii were sold, probably in Thailand as there is no real CP market here and most of the plants come from Thailand or from... the wild.
I did see the hybrid between mirabilis and thorelii like the one which appeared on the deleted pictures.

The poacher refused kindly to give me any infos about any other thorelii location pretending he didn't know. Exactly what the other poacher said (and the one we could see with the unrooted plant and the shovel ::)).

I' m not even mad at these guys. They just have not a single clue about what conservation is. They started a collection of bizarre plants and learned by internet (MY big mistake) that it was a valuable plant. So, they tried to get some monopoly.
Each time I tried to explain conservation issues, a cheeky smile appeared on the face of the poacher as if I was saying a big joke.

They're just kids. I hope they can grow up. Like Charles Clarke told me before he returned to KL, we need at least one generation before hobbyists realize the whole situation.
Now, they're just bullies or selfish kids. Whatever.

I did meet one young 15 years old grower called Tran Minh (a member of this forum) who is really aware - a very nice teenager- and who tries to spread the good word. But no one listen to him. Tran, you just have to keep on.

This was my last day in Vietnam. A failure. I spent the whole day in one of the type location where I extensively searched for some swamps but almost everything has been turned to rubber plantations more than 30 years ago. People remembered the plants though.
Like I already said, N. thorelii might grow somewhere else in some 10 square meters but I just can't afford time and money to do a random search. I will return there only if I have help from the Vietnamese hobbyists. Until, then I will focuse all my efforts on Cambodia where I have full supports fron friends, biologists and NGO who will even grant me some funds for the following years.

I will post some pictures of the thorelii locations quite soon.

Tomorrow, I will return for one week in Cambodia where I will visit a few new locations and doing some work at the herbarium of Phnom Penh.

I' ll keep you updated.

Cheers,

Francois.

Re: In search of Nepenthes thorelii
 

What a sad and tragic ending to this saga. The plants could end up anywhere, and the Thailand story could just be a ruse, a decoy to divert attention, but can't be ruled out either as there are lots of nurseries that market Nepenthes; but in this small CP community, with internet forums, email and all, they will eventually be found out. Good to know that 'cello might be able to intercept any illegal plants entering the markets in Thailand.

Too bad these poachers were so short sighted and narrow minded, they probably don't realize that they could have made even MORE money if they did things within the law and conservation, plus they could have been the heroes of the Nepenthes world, and farmed these plants as crops, harvesting seed, and having a continuous supply and income, instead of a quick kill and the shame and disgrace of being world known for poaching every last plant right out of existence in its natural habitat. What a shame.

Let's hope TranMinh finds another site in his country some day. - Rich

Re: In search of Nepenthes thorelii
 

Sorry to hear this Francois... but that's part of life. Who knows, maybe be with proper local network, you'll still have a chance to come back and observe the thorelii in situ one day. Don't give up hope just yet.

I don't think it's far fetch to see those wild collected thorelii ended up in Thailand as I'm aware that many wild collected neps are widely available for sale in Thailand. If you still really wanted to see the suspected thorelii, depending on your Thai connection, it's not impossible to locate those neps from Vietnam in Thai market.

Re: In search of Nepenthes thorelii
 

Hello,
I'm back in Phnom Penh, Cambodia. A last week of research. I hope it will be more positive than the previous week spent in neighbouring Vietnam.
Because I really want the CP community to know more about about this peculiar species, I will, roughly, explain the "thoreliigate'':
1/ Nepenthes of Indochina have been studied between 1896 and 1909. Then nothing for almost one century.
2/ Most of the plants coming from this part of the world into private collections have been labelled as "N. thorelii'', without serious researches being undertaken. Many people realize that all these thorelii plants are variable though quite similar.
Between 2004 and 2009, Marcello Catalano, Martin Cheek then myself start working on this group of plants. Conclusion is made that plants in cultivation do not fit the type description ad than the type locations haven't been visited since the first collections and the decription of the species.
Some of us hope to find again this ghost plant one day. Almost every location where it has been collected had been turned into plantations or heavily wounded by war (agent orange, napalm, B52's)". At one point, I even thought that the pecies might be extinct.
At this time, we didn't know how the species really look like.
3/ In 2007, I uncover new specimens in Paris herbarium. Adding that to the tyes of the species, I now have a clear idea of how the species looks.
4/ In november 2009, some Vietnamese growers post photos of a strange Nepenthes from Vietnam. I immediately recognize N. thorelii and exppress the wish to make sure that it is really N. thorelii and to study the population in the field.
5/ Quickly,these photos generates a lively discussion. Some of them show a Vietnamese with a shovel hand and dirty hands holding an uprooted plant.
6/ I managed to get a roughly indication of the plants whereabouts. Charles Clarke, Well known expert, even wishes to join me. Very nice.
7/ The discussion turns into a real scandal. The Vietnamese decide to withdraw and delete their pictures. They refuse to help me further.
8/ February 2010: I'm in Vietnam with Charles Clarke. After a few days of research, we uncover the locality: a swamp. After a few hours of pointless investigations, we find out that " some Vietnamese kids from Ho-Chi-Minh city came a few months ago and dug all the red plants".
9/ With Charles, we visit many localities, including the type locations (visited 150 to 100 years ago) but we're not successful. Eveything has been turned into plantations or habitations.
10/ Officially, this species is not in cultivation (although many growers persist in labelling some of the plans as N. thorelii). Recently, N. htorelii was one of the few species, with the elusive N. junguhnii (the spelling is not good ;-)) and N. mollis, which weren't pictures in Stewart McPherson monography. The species is not in culture and the only know location has been destroyed.
You will find below the infamous pictures and some pictures of the Paris specimens.
Nepenthes thorelii is the emblematic Nepenhes from Indchina and at the same time the least known of all. It might also be the most beautiful. I thik that many growers would fall in love with those ovoid lower pitchers and the same could be said about these upper pitchers, which look like some elongated N. aristolochioides upper pitchers.
From a conservation point of view, it t's disaster. From the pont of view of the botanist and the taxonomist, it's really bad news. Finding N. thorelii might have helped to elaborate a long awaited key to the Indochinese species.
I still have hope to find the species but I won't return to Vietnam without the suppport of the very small Vietnamese growers community (middle class kids). But, now, almost all of them seem completely unable to understand the issues of conservation and biodiveristy.



http://img193.imageshack.us/img193/3347/p1010549q.jpg
http://img51.imageshack.us/img51/1965/p1010553yd.jpg

Francois.

Re: In search of Nepenthes thorelii
 

Thanks for the story and the interesting "deleted" pics, this nep is certainly very different from the usual thorelii that I have come across. First glance looks like a N. sp Phanga aka viking but the decurrent and thick leaves points to a sp Tiger origin.

To me, it actually look very similar to some form of Giant Tigers and hybrids of viking with N. mirabilis or sp Tigers but I'm just an amateur :shy:.

Thanks again for sharing what you have experiened during your stay in Vietnam, it maybe a story without happy ending but at least all of us get a chance to learn, understand and witness more about the mysterious N. thorelii. I hope you stay in Cambodia will be a fruitful adventure. Looking forward for your field reports from Cambodia soon... Keep up the good work !! :1thumbup:

Re: In search of Nepenthes thorelii
 

Hey, guys - persons who civilization consider yourselves.
I don't know developed persons know how to behave...!!?
- used things not authority to discuss,to analyse and to compare about developed/non_developed and pround of yourselves....again and again...that's funny :)
- after be refused yr request politely, why you don't thinking, thinking and thinking about this, what's reasons ?? (maybe i was been persuadable by mr.Philip)
with anythings you did, you've never been welcome at VN
through by mr.Francoise and sb. at yr side, I understood civilization is what. (thks so much about this)
by the way, if you're civilization, you should know moderate and don't talkative by pick holes in my private.
finaly, VN community very angry with yr judge one sided.(maybe you got many info. fr some kids yet?!
I'm fell lucky by not civilization as you
with love
hvophuong

Re: In search of Nepenthes thorelii
 

Hmm, sounds like some internet translation thing going on here, not making much sense; but this is in fact an absolute disgrace and outrage in every way possible on every level imaginable! I only hope that someone comes clean in this terrible crime against nature and conservation. - Rich

Re: In search of Nepenthes thorelii
 

Those guys suck!
I think they have no legal right to do this "research" . It seems to be that this is not good place cause too many rude person in.
This may be a trap for VNese idiots.

Re: In search of Nepenthes thorelii
 

Now I know why are you so angry on the other forum. Well if you say "I think they have no legal right to do this "research" you have no legal right to dig up these plants although I know the government doesn't have rules agaisnt digging these plants up. Really..you should just cool down and explain. I don't even think that sockhom offended you did he? He was just trying to protect the plants. They are going to become extinct if someone like you keep digging them up for your own selfish reasons. Well if this is a trap for "VNese idiots" well you're one. The only rude person here is you who don't know what is "civilization"

Re: In search of Nepenthes thorelii
 

Hello everyone,
I'm new to the forum :laugh:.

For poacher and ofcouse for you Lamde83,
Wow ! Wow ! Dig plants, poacher is civilization ? There is nothing funny in here, the place where the plants found just a mountain with no protect at all. What you did is dig all plants and keep them at your house hope they will birth money for you ?!. Let think about this, that mountain is the plants house there is nobody protect the house, some thief come-in and kidnapper all the "plants" in this situation :crying:. What you did just like a criminal !. Also, grower is who love the plants so they create everything is the best for the plants, protect them, watering them, you is not a grower. Did I say something wrong ?.

Refuse to help Sockhom and what he say is true, you reply and said this is wrong do you have clue :confused: ?. You also say that these is so many rude person in here including you, sorry but nothing is wrong here !!!!. You are a English teacher right, what a shame ! Do you teach your student those bad word ?. I though that a teacher is who have clean mind, a good person for student can follow :confused:. You should stop act like a big man and grow your brain ( if needed you can use Super Thrive, yah yah they are good to help thing grow faster *biggrin2*). I want to repeat again those plants not belong to you ! They belong to the natural, belong to their home.

Re: In search of Nepenthes thorelii
 

Dear Mr.David/admin,

Suggestion remove all pic. mine. I don't agree s.one used for aim at distort objective or sth else. They're mine and I adv you - with authorize status, remove all of them.

I only dig 2 plant to seed and clone as sb at this forum (maybe I pround of myself not business, my aim' re research and preserve them) - but, as sb said, I'm not proud of this -digging in nature. So, i've never thought my pics. be shown on many forum--> who post is not good awareness that exploited to serve aim of retaliated against me ( I can't suport at VN cause I didn't belive him yet - he got good relation with best seller CPs at VN, only 1 person who support him to anywhere that he knew by he is good hunter CPs at VN to exploit in wild and sell them).At VN, everyone know about this. That's reason I couldn't help him and that's the reason no ones support him excepted only kid.
Maybe mr.Francois is idol with sb, but with his action to me on this forum and other forums - i disdain.
maybe sb who comes to VN is really expert and with reaserch aim, I and sb at VN helped but none.
why, why and why no ones can support him at VN --> one reason only : we have doubts about aim of trip.
now, see those pics. again, Do you still not collect his aim ?? :)
P/S: I'm sure that excepted 2 plants are growing at my home, no wild plants was dug. It's good news and bad news - I won't support sb to VN to "research" easilly. until now, only me know place which they grow-it's minimum things that I can do to protect them.

one again, pls don't see one-side and conclusion one-side as things which sb want you see as it.
thks for all yr comments and pls closely
thks you

Re: In search of Nepenthes thorelii
 

In sumarry:

1. They locate a species that has NOT been seen in nearly 100 years - VERY GOOD!

2. Then they dig up the plants roots and all! - VERY BAD!

3. Then they refuse to help Francois and Charles Clarke (two well known, respected and published botanists) ascertain their identity, (which would have made these guys heroes in the Nepenthes community), with absolute disrespect! - REALLY BAD!

4. Francois then finds that ALL of these plants have been dug up, roots and all, the entire population, from the only known location where they may have once existed! - REALLY VERY BAD!

5. Then they claim to have sold them all to someone in Thailand, where these plants may get lost with all the other pseudo-thorelii plants in street markets where they are probably doomed to die as house or garden plants by people who don't have a clue on how to grow them, not to mention risking the introduction of any root parasites from Vietnam such as nematodes, or the smuggling of poached plants into another country without documentation! - DOES IT GET ANY WORSE THAN THIS?

6. Now we hear that some of these guys are upset, angry and offended by the outrage that some of us have expressed over this act of rape against Mother Nature, (Well, D'UH!), which gives ALL of us a bad name, and a "black eye". I feel sorry for the legit Vietnamese growers. - This is like having someone demand an apology from you for being called a thief after they robbed your house! This is beyond ridiculous!

As I said earlier, they could have made SO much more money by farming and protecting these plants like crops in this site, harvesting some seed and cuttings to get them into cultivation and maybe some TC labs, and Francois and Charles Clarke would have given them due credit for this find, and they would have been well respected heroes and immortalized in scientific journals, and had a steady income for several years by selling cuttings and seed. What a shame! - Rich

Re: In search of Nepenthes thorelii
 

Oh, kids is protecting persons who give candies!!!.

how great when you steal some pics. private and post public to discuss about this??
it's great with you by you have some target to keep talking. it's really fun. you're talkactive, no more no less
normally, I'm not free time as sb in this room b/c i very busy with my comapany, less time as you. but now i feel free to talk with you cause i have a free times (it's lunar new year)
I know mr.Charles - he is admin in famous site and i propect him.
If person who talk with me is mr.Charles, maybe you get some pics. great about true thorie, but i don't know appearence of him
Do you know who is a person take mr.Francois to find out.... really funny - and you know only about him said (do you know about this trip, no get anythings excepted some CPs plant survice after a person who take him around n around exploite exhaustion).
next times, pls keep silent if you can not get details
pls shut up
thks you

Re: In search of Nepenthes thorelii
 

I guess we know who dug the plants up.

Re: In search of Nepenthes thorelii
 

Well you have the authority to remove the picture BUT... WE WILL remember what you have done
You say that you're trying to protect them. Then we can't say much because we might be mistaken.If you're trying to protect them why do poachers still get their hands on the plants?Hmm?How would they know where to search?
Next you say "Maybe mr.Francois is idol with sb, but with his action to me on this forum and other forums - i disdain" well what action was it? You didn't say anything then you try to deny everything. Mr.Francois is talking about conservation. If you and him have the same goal --- saving the thorelii , why wouldn't you help him? Because you suspect him right? Why don't you just show him your two thorelii at home?

Re: In search of Nepenthes thorelii
 

Let me ask your question, you have a best best best friend. When he get trouble do you protect and help him or just left him a long ?. Lol, your thinking is shallow " Kid are silly or something ect ?". Also you are not my boss, do you think to blame at the true what people say is good ?. Do you think you do that can stop us talk about you ?. It just get more and more worst as you started to ague back. From now can you change your mind about other people the way thinking you are the king of the land or comtenpt someone. What I'm did now is the same like you, do you feel angry or more than that ?. Think about this more and more, also stop the cheeky smile to blame at people.

Re: In search of Nepenthes thorelii
 

This is SO wrong on SO many levels that it isn't even funny; it's SO sad and tragic as well. Obviously there are language and cultural barriers to overcome; but the fact is that an entire population of plants that haven't been seen for nearly a hundred years have been ripped and raped right out of their natural habitat, roots and all, from the only known location where they once existed which is beyond words to describe the crime, the offense and the atrocities that this really is. Other criminals (Yes, this is indeed a serious crime!) are also upset at having their photos displayed in public, such as "Wanted Posters" with details of their crimes against Mother Nature, Humanity and all; it's very embarrassing, and exposes the truth as it is. Criminals like these don't like these truths to be exposed. Well, TOO BAD! - Rich

Re: In search of Nepenthes thorelii
 

To brother CP enthusiasts in Vietnam, I would like to explain that you should not look at Mr.Francois and Mr. Charles like bad men, they are surely not trying to steal your plants or poach them. They want to study and record their existence. Here in Philippines people like them are helping the world know more about Nepenthes, and they are the ones that usually find new species. They usually protect the site they find because they do not want poachers to find them and collect them. I am friends with one of them who is now staying in Philippines, he surely is out to protect these plants that they find.

Sometimes they talk to collectors or sellers of Nepenthes in the country they are searching, because these people know where to start looking or maybe even knows where to find because those people sometimes poach also. That does not mean they are working with them! They are just doing research and investigation. Maybe you are thinking because they are friendly to these sellers that they might tell the location to them... if that is the case, make them swear or promise that the location be kept secret from others. They will understand. As someone said, if you helped them and they publish their research, your names will surely be included, you will be world famous!!!

We have a young Vietnamese member here in the forum who has all the right attitude towards CPs in Vietnam, there seems to be no law against Nepenthes collection there, or that the locality is not protected at all, so people can take the nepenthes without breaking the law. However it is still wrong to take all the plants, if you want to make business out of it, it is better not to take all but only some. It is like you go to business selling chickens but you sell all your chickens at once, so you do not have anymore chickens to lay eggs to make more chickens.

I have NO idea what is the basis for saying that the team had no legal rights to study. Why? Is there a law in Vietnam against Studying? In fact the gentlemen can also be just tourist looking at countryside?

To our Young Vietnamese CP friends. Please keep in mind that although the Nepenthes in Vietnam are your's and your country's... please think of us in other countries as well, we love Nepenthes all over the world, if you help collect them from the wild, they might go extinct and everyone will lose. Please don't just think about maybe making money or for your private collection, please think of the rest of the world and CP enthusiasts.

Happy year of the Tiger everyone!
Arvin

Re: In search of Nepenthes thorelii
 

Hi Arvin,
Thank for the reply, I really like it ( no joke ). We all love CPs, there is people doing research about nepenthes species for hobby, not for money. I believe that is true, that why I want to help Francois. But in this case they think that Francois is going to digging up the plants ?!?!, this was a huge misunderstood. But after all everything we have talk about, he still not changing, a conservative mind.

Re: In search of Nepenthes thorelii
 

@Arvin: i'm really appreciate yr comment. I agree with all yr comment and VN community is that, not right distort fr sb. above as well.
@rsivertsen+marvin1997+...: you see everythings by one eye, listen by one ear and talkactive by mouths. all of you are kids like candy. PLs don't touch us. we ate candy as like you.
finally, I want say again and then no answer fr me (by no arguments with kids like candy)
- I dug 2 CPs. it's right and i'm not disclaim. I'm not proud of self, too.
- I'm not "still" dig as sb told.I have 2 CPs fr wild to clone.and then, they still alive - 1 for me n 1 for my friend. it's conclusion provoke.
- I'm prespect mr.Chales, not mr.Francois, who bring mistakes for all this room by judge one-side and make we're fighting.(and really worse when use again old pics. steal fr my privated to persuadable everyone believe his said)
- I'm sure that true thorie still safe with me. when I have chance, I will show some update to all enjoy asap.
if you get prespected fr sb - you should prespect them, first. You didn't get minimum.
I will choose keep silent cause I know I can not say reasonings with kids like candy.
and next 3 months, I will give some seeds fr my CPs as pics. (but i'm not sure - i will try to give who really love CPs)

thks for sb uphold me also VN community - I'm really grateful for you

Re: In search of Nepenthes thorelii
 

Kai, anh chua tung noi chyen voi em, em dang noi gi the ?
mat du anh chua gap em, nhung anh biet em la ai va anh cung khong muon gay han gi voi em nen de nghi em giup nguoi VN dung bi lu suc vat ben nuoc ngoai bia dat chuyen roi chui chung ta la khong van minh

em hieu anh noi gi chu?!!
anyway, anh se bao ve cong dong Viet den cung neu bon cho nuoc ngoai cu ngu si nghe loi thang francois kieu do

thks em da thanh minh dum nguoi Viet, nhung anh khong dong y khi em dong y voi ho rang chung ta co thoi quen nho cay trong rung - ai lai vach ao cho nguoi xem lung nhu the

de nghi em nen ho tro 100% cho nguoi Viet - not cho tui nuoc ngoai
thks em

Re: In search of Nepenthes thorelii
 

Re: In search of Nepenthes thorelii
 

tuy em, em da lua chon...

Re: In search of Nepenthes thorelii
 

Guys I will get a proper translation from my viet friend who speaks fluent english

but from what i can tell I think there is just a big misunderstanding from both sides.
I think both sides need to put themselves in the other sides shoes and see from their point of view.

I think Franc and co were too quick to judge and are using hvophuongs pict to depict a poacher when he has only taken 2 plants for what he believes is to introduce the plant into cultivation.

There were trust issues with franc and I dont blame him seeing that foreigners come in and want to know the secret location to a native plant, Would you tell this stranger/ foreigner you dont know about where the location is ??? (common sense here guys...imagine your a normal bloke and your in his situation after the whole forum outrage earlier)

Also from the stuff he wrote in viet he does not want a situation where westerners come in and take this plant and distribute around the world.

Re: In search of Nepenthes thorelii
 

@rainyday:
that's right whom I want share
thks for yr comment:1thumbup:

Re: In search of Nepenthes thorelii
 

Let me help you to translation this fast and true 100% no changing at all.


Kai, I never been talking to you. What are you talking about ?
What ever, I never meet you but I know who you are and I don't want to ague with you so join us help VN people fight back, don't let those animal make a story and say that we are not civilization.
Do you understand ?
Anyway, I will protect Vietnam community to the end. What ever those stupid foreigners, they listen to francos without thinking !.
Also thank you for the reply. But I don't like you to say that we like yo digging plants from the wild who let you that ?
Please 100% doing for Vietnamese - not for the foreigners.
Thanks.

I never say that you all digging plants from the wild, I wrote what I think is right !. I never did some thing that unfair, I really like this plants, so I want to protect it at it site. I never like to see they get sale or digging up, also you shouldn't rude like that. They have good think for the plants, they want to protect the plants, I see there is nothing wrong. If you really love this plants with everything you have, then you should protect it like a small child. There is many misunderstood, also there is many right thing, don't be blind to doing something wrong.

It depend on you, you have choose ...

Nothing is translation wrong here, I guarantee.

Re: In search of Nepenthes thorelii
 

First Part hvophuong is telling tranminh that he has never spoke to him before and that he has done nothing to him and some phrase which literally means (stop opening your shirt to foreigners/ sucking up to them)
Then he goes he will protect his community and that he would not give out their secrets to a foreigner like francosis who looks down on them.
Then he says thanks you for clarifying that there are good vietnamese hobbist, however i dont agree with you agreeing with the westerners that we have a bad habbit of digging plants from the jungle.

Last line I suggest you support the vietnamese people and not the westerners.

While tran minh is telling him he loves the plants and he doesnt want a situation where the plants disappear from natural habitat and people are digging them out to sell them.

Re: In search of Nepenthes thorelii
 

I think sometimes the best way to preserve a species is to commercialize it.

I collect cactus and I have seen cactus of CITES I species being seed grown by the hundreds in Malaysia and sold very cheaply. This helps to preserve it by creating more genetic diversity as well as their numbers.

Many of the wild neps habitat will be lost to agriculture or development. There is no use protecting a species without protecting the habitat. I've seen many habitat being destroyed in the past few months in Malaysia. Malaysia has only 28 million population. Vietnam has three times more.

I think our Vietnam CP friend have every right to dig up the wild neps provided that his purpose is to preserve the species. Leaving it in its habitat in this highly populated country may not be a good idea. Bare in mind that only two plants were found, it could be the last two ever grown in the habitat. Leaving it to chance is not a good idea.

It is even better if he want to propagate it for commercial purpose. This will really helps in its preservation. The species will be more valuable if our vietnam friend could allow our scientific friend to formally describe the species. This way, both will benefit.

If he just want too keep it as his private collection, then it could be the end of the species.

Wong

Re: In search of Nepenthes thorelii
 

I completly agree with Wong

hvophuong you are one of the only people that can save this plant by mass producing it and sharing with all the vietnamese hobbist and maybe the rest of the world.

Even if you dont want the plant in western hands it eventually will be sold overseas whether by someone digging from jungle or originating from your vietnamese community from your 2 plants.

Re: In search of Nepenthes thorelii
 

Gee – if ever I needed a reminder as to why I prefer not to post on these forums, this thread has provided it!

I’m not going to get involved in this argument, but I do need to clarify one point that relates directly to me:

It has been suggested in some posts in this thread that I was in Vietnam conducting illegal research. I wish to state very clearly that I was not conducting any illegal research on this trip. Francois invited me to join him in his search for N. thorelii and I tagged along because the prospect of seeing this species in the wild was appealing, as was the opportunity to see some semi-deciduous monsoon forests during the dry season. I entered the country on a tourist visa and am perfectly entitled to travel around and look for Nepenthes on this type of visa without obtaining any special permits, just as any Vietnamese tourist who visits Australia is entitled to look for kangaroos.

This trip was relevant to my scientific research, as I wish to find out what sorts of mosquitoes live in pitchers throughout Indo-China. However, without a formal research permit, I was unable to do anything more than to simply take a look around. That was all I wanted to do and there is nothing illegal about it. In fact, the staff of the nearby nature reserve were very encouraging and did everything they could to assist. Throughout my trip, I was impressed by the local people's knowledge, friendliness and willingness to assist.

If I had found something of interest that I felt was worth investigating further, I would have waited until I got back to Malaysia, then used the proper channels to arrange a formal research permit with the Vietnamese authorities, before making a return trip to Vietnam at some future date to conduct the research. However, with no access to a wild population of N. thorelii, there is no point in me doing this at present.

I would be grateful if anyone who has suggested that I entered Vietnam to conduct research without a permit could retract their remarks or accusations.

Best wishes,

Charles

Re: In search of Nepenthes thorelii
 

Hey Minh,

you're "good guy"
I will remember which you did for VN commu.
once again thks mr.Minh "supported"
I will disappear away this topic to avoid problems

Re: In search of Nepenthes thorelii
 

@mr.Charles: thks for yr comment
I wish if you talk with me before; maybe anythings will change
I didn't believe mr.fran. b/c he wants to get more special by anyways.
a person who take you around here is plants series killer and sell them. Mr.fran already co_op to get his aim. I don't like this.
If you're me - what should you do in this case?

Re: In search of Nepenthes thorelii
 

I have had similar experience dealing with wild nepenthes collector in Thailand when I'm looking for N. kongkandana and N. ampullaria (wild amp is actually very rare in Thailand)... It's a very complicated issue. In one hand, I have to deal with the so called "poarcher" in order to get access to the wild nep poulation. On the other hand, I don't support his activities but I need to rely on him. So, I have no choice but to rely on him to locate those wild nep site in order to observe them and study them (that's how eventually Marcello was able to finish his studies of nep species in southern Thailand).

After sometime I get to know this guy, this "wild nep collector" (out of respect to him) is actually not an evil person at all but since the idea of conservation is not engraved in his mind, he never suspected what he did is of any harm. He is just a normal guy trying to make a living to support his family... So with my constant persuasion, explanation and conservation views, he slowly realized what is happening to the wild neps status in Thailand. He understand now if he keep on doing what's he's doing now, his source of income will not last forever. Now, he played a part in helping us to find, research and record the findings of whatever wild neps left in southern Thailand before it's all gone. He wanted to help the people who are qualified (not me obviously :shy:) to take pics and study the neps in the wild so it can be properly documented before it disappear forever.

hvophuong, I hope you can understand what I'm trying to say with my story. I will not judge you base on the fact that you dug up a few neps (if this is the honest thruth) for your own collection but I implore you to help in whatever way you can to show people with proper qualification (nep researcher) to re-study and re-observe posibbly a nep species that's long forgotten to human knowledge. You may have your reasons and I understand if you hesistate to help others to study the plant. However, please remember for a nep researcher, to study nep in habitat is more important than to study it in cultivation (for example at your own private nursery where you grow these plant). I believe a true nep enthusist will do whatever it can to preserve the wild nep if possible, unless a place with wild nep population is going to be develop and no relevant authority is going to do anything to preserve it, then I feel we as an individual should at least collect some samples and if possible, spread it among cultivation around the world. That's how we can differentiate who's the true nep lover and who's a person trying to make a quick money...

I think all of us should cool down a little not to quickly condem a person(s) whose country don't even have proper regulation to protect our beloved nepenthes. You have to get into their shoes to understand to them, digging up a wild nep in Vietnam, is like digging up a weed to most Vietnamese. Only a few of them aware of their uniqueness and are in the same "wavelength" when it comes to the conservation status of these plants. I hope with this incident, more Vietnamese will be more aware of it and find this interesting enough to spend sometime to understand this unique plant species. We can't really force an idea and expect people to accept it overnight but we can try to educate and influence them so that they can understand what's going on and what's need to be done... Maybe Charles is correct on the "generation" theory for this conservation mindset to sink in but for many place around the world, do we have that much time??

Re: In search of Nepenthes thorelii
 

Hi hvophuong,

Don't worry - everything that has happened has already happened and there's nothing much that can be changed now. It's not worth getting too upset about it. If I was you, I would have a "healthy suspicion" about anyone who showed a strong interest in local Nepenthes or your knowledge about sensitive locations. However, a "healthy suspicion" means that you also give them a chance to prove themselves to be trustworthy first... the best way to do this is for both sides to talk to each other and explain what they want to do and what they are concerned about. It's true that some people lie and cannot be trusted, but most people are OK.

To all you guys in Vietnam who are growing N. thorelii, the best thing you can do now is propagate your plants and keep in contact with each other: ie, form a network. You don't have to make this official and you don't need to be accountable to anyone. If each of you manage to propagate 10 plants (in addition to those that you need for your collection (with a mix of males and females)), you could arrange to re-plant the site with your excess plants (do it during the wet season, when they have the best chance of becoming established). 50 plants should be enough to get the population re-established. The habitat is still OK and if you all work together, the cost to each of you would be minimal, you could all continue to enjoy growing this species, and in the long term the population might recover. Nobody has to admit that they collected anything from the wild and nobody has to be accountable to anyone else. If you achieved this, you would have succeeded in doing something that nobody else has done with Nepenthes anywhere in the world, and you will still have your own plants to grow.

Then, in a few years from now, you could post some photos of the re-established population on the forum and ask people from other countries whether they have achieved anything like this.

Cheers,

Charles

Re: In search of Nepenthes thorelii
 

Dear mr.Charles

thks for yr comment
I will noted :)

Dear NepNut;

thks for yr story. I understand what you said to me.
I'm feel free with yr comment.
But i'm really bored with sb. in room.
they always call asean area is underdeveloped - this is offensive to us while seeing their actions, very contradictions.
i can not say anything more...
i'm sick of, fed up...and ect. with this topic

I didn't understand why admin don't remove all pics. which be stolen fr me ?? what's for ???
is it right with people whom always pround of developed countries:confused::confused::confused::confused::confused: ;

with love
hvophuong

Re: In search of Nepenthes thorelii
 

It's holiday ( Chinese Lunar New Year ) probably admin was out of town.

Re: In search of Nepenthes thorelii
 

Well, this is starting to have a very pleasant ending to this thread! Great idea Charles! Perhaps you can eventually meet up with Mr. hvophuong and write something up on this plant, with Mr. hvophuong given due credit for this find.

As Nepenthes enthusiasts, we are very passionate about these plants, especially those that were on the brink of extinction, and haven't been seen in nearly 100 years! We really share the same concerns for these plants, and want to protect them when we find them.

I can understand the skepticism of Mr. hvophuong, and especially with regard to outsiders, considering Vietnam’s history in the last 50 years, quite understandable, but we are becoming a global community now, with internet forums such as this, email, etc, and in this close knit interest circles, almost like an extended family without boarders defined by political agendas and dogmas.

Perhaps Mr. hvophuong might be interested in exchanging seed with some of our CPs that grow in our "back yards" and expand his collection too. Despite my harsh criticisms earlier, I would like to extend a personal welcome to you, Mr. hvophuong, into this CP community as a fellow grower in good faith, so that we all can all share in the knowledge base of these amazing plants, and keep focused on their conservation so that they will still in the wild for our children to observe and enjoy some day. Peace. :1thumbup: - Rich

Re: In search of Nepenthes thorelii
 

Photo deleted.

Re: In search of Nepenthes thorelii
 

I think i needed to said something for the VN community. They are not as selfish as your can imagin. They are just trying to protect their country after so many years of foreign country coming in to ravage their country before. Also there are lots of pro CPs growers in VN, i had deal with them.
If they are not so active in this or other english written forums, because they feel more comfortable with their own community. But some of them did go to those chinese forum, i know most of them from there. I believed that there are more N. thorelii in the wild in VN. And this place can be turn to farm over night!!! Some of the VN guys are trying their best to propogate them, and the result is good. These plant are fast grower. Guys, do give them some time, eventually, the whloe world will flood with this plant.

Re: In search of Nepenthes thorelii
 

Can anyone tell me what is these:

Re: In search of Nepenthes thorelii
 

Delwin, I think most people here would be able to tell you that those plants are nepenthes.. :p but what type, we wouldn't be sure as there are no visible pitchers.

Re: In search of Nepenthes thorelii
 

I think you should follow the topic of this thread*biggrin2* No problem:biggrin: