Some crazy-huge rafflesianas...
 

Saw this post on another forum. These were found for sale at a market in Brunei:
http://orchidmania.11.forumer.com/vi...r=asc&start=30

:laugh: :laugh:

Re: Some crazy-huge rafflesianas...
 

Sorry, I didn't know that you have to log in to view the page. I reuploaded the pics to re-post here. Hope that is ok...
http://i208.photobucket.com/albums/b...y/DSCN7419.jpg
http://i208.photobucket.com/albums/b...y/DSCN7420.jpg
http://i208.photobucket.com/albums/b...y/DSCN7421.jpg
http://i208.photobucket.com/albums/b...y/DSCN7422.jpg
http://i208.photobucket.com/albums/b...y/DSCN7423.jpg
http://i208.photobucket.com/albums/b...y/DSCN7426.jpg

Re: Some crazy-huge rafflesianas...
 

if i not mistaken, i heard that guy buy it for SG 5, 10 or 15,,,kinda cheap if convert to RM

Re: Some crazy-huge rafflesianas...
 

wow...cheap also:1thumbup:

Re: Some crazy-huge rafflesianas...
 

U can find these pics from GCS forum

Re: Some crazy-huge rafflesianas...
 

Wow they are huge and they make me envious :)

Re: Some crazy-huge rafflesianas...
 

those look like typical poached plants: huge, with no pot, just a bag, debris on the soil surface, irregular and small soil lump just taken out of the soil with a shovel. And once again, people don't seem to care: "they are huge, let's buy them".
I know, this matter is more complicated than it seems: on one side, those plants would die anyway, so it's better if they are bought by nep growers, and possibly spread in cultivation, while the wild populations are being destroyed. On the other side, if you buy those plants, the poachers see that there's a market, they will go back in the wild and poach some more plants. Poachers (and people who buy from poachers) are a big reason for the extinction of many nepenthes species, I saw that happening in Thailand year after year. Urban and agricultural development is much worse, but poachers are quite bad too.
Now, I can't say for sure that these plants have been poached, but considering the first 3 lines of my post, it would be nice to see at least some negative or interrogative reactions in a forum devoted to Nepenthes lovers. Or it's really just a matter of "they are huge, let's buy" ?

Re: Some crazy-huge rafflesianas...
 

Harvested from the wild. After you plant them, they pitcher wont be that big anymore

Re: Some crazy-huge rafflesianas...
 

I am not encouraging PP members to buy these poached plants. I just intended to show the variation in wild rafflesiana.

Re: Some crazy-huge rafflesianas...
 

But on the otehr hand, if they are poached and not purchased, the seller is not likely knowledgeable enough to maintain them in good health. If a serious enthusiast purchases them and is able to not only grow, but propagate them as well, then it will reduce pressure on natural populations. Just my 2 cents :)

Re: Some crazy-huge rafflesianas...
 

I agree that poaching is illegal but sometime we have to look at it from a different perspective and take into considerations the local cultural and customary practices. If the poaching is done by you and me then it's definitely illegal regardless of our intention whether to propagate or to profit from them. But if a native is to take them from the wild for whatever reasons it's perfectly legal as they hold customary right over the land and it's fauna/flora. What we see in the pictures are probably taken from a native market where jungle produces are sold and traded as it has been done for over hundreds of year. These peoples actually understand the value of conservations and will never deplete the jungle as their wellbeing and livelihood depend on them. There's no harm buying from them as from some of the big nursery eventhough some of their breeding stock are sourced from the wild in the name of conservation(profit)*biggrin2*.
By the way the pitchers are so HUGE...:wub:

Re: Some crazy-huge rafflesianas...
 

In my opinion its does not really make a difference whether who is doing it legally or illegally, that is more like gaining a "reason" or excuse to assure oneself that is it "actually OK" to remove the plant from wild.

Even if it is just one plant being poached/sampled/or whatever word is used...it actually means one less plant in the wild to reproduce seedlings. And also I believe its not just one or two being removed but possibly a significant number is poached from the known location each time. This would basically deal a heavy blow to the nep's survival in the area.

Whether an expert grower or novice buys the wild plant, it means survival/death to that single plant. However the bigger picture is demand = supply required = more plants to be removed for more profit. I don't really see how this help the wild neps' population.

The biggest threat to neps is still destruction of rain-forest by man for land use.

Re: Some crazy-huge rafflesianas...
 

In the history of man, selfish collectors, greedy businessmen and corrupt government officers are always the force behind extinction of rare / protected plants in their natural habitat, including those in protected areas. One good example is the recent case of Lizard King Anson Wong. This bastard never learn the lesson even after he was caught so many times

Re: Some crazy-huge rafflesianas...
 

Well, it depends. There are 2 schools of thought. The 'saving of wild plants' is one way to look at it. If the habitat is already under threat because of other activities (logging, construction etc), then would you rather those plants left to die there? Or 'harvested' (saved) and sold with perhaps a better chance of them surviving in captivity, and possibly be propagated (under the right hands)...? This has happened with many rare orchids. Slipper orchids (Paphiopedilum sp) used to be one of the rarest genera of orchids on the planet, as some species are restricted to a very small locality. However, collection from the wild (where else could you get parent material to work with), selection and modern propagation has yielded large quantities of easier-to-cultivate plants. Same with many of the nepenthes, namely rajah and clipeata. To effectively reduce the pressure on 'demand', you have to bring in more supply from these artificially-propagated sources.

Re: Some crazy-huge rafflesianas...
 

I am NOT condoning what Anson Wong did. His motive was for profit. What I am referring to is for the purpose of 'conservation through cultivation'....

Re: Some crazy-huge rafflesianas...
 

Well, it's good that at least people are discussing this :)
Please don't get confused about a few things:

-in SE Asian countries, local poaching is legal, no problem, we are talking about the MORAL problem of destroying a whole species in the wild. And believe me, local people (when they are not nepenthes lovers, growers specialists etc) don't care about that, they don't even realize that. They will collect Nepenthes until there are nepenthes, when they finish, they will collect something else, they don't really care about conservation.

-professional nurseries have plants obtained from seeds (which is morally fine, if well done) or cuttings (which is morally fine, if well done), not whole plants, so please don't compare the two. Poachers dig out plants and sell those directly, it's completely different. If you wanna be sure your plants come from a morally safe origin, always buy from well known professional sellers. Avoid unknown ebay sellers from SE Asia selling adult specimens, they are often poached. And of course avoid buying plants at local markets if they are not sold by professional, local nepenthes growers.

-finally, don't take the "oh, well, it's better in my hands than in the poacher's hands" and "ho, well, I will help the species introducing this plant in cultivation" as an excuse to allow and ignore poaching. Nepenthes lovers should not buy poached plants unless they are the only source for that particular species, it's going extinct and you really need to preserve any plant you find, no matter if it's poached (clipeata and others are a good example). If the species is not in danger, you should collect seeds and cuttings yourself, or buy them. Select the best plants and introduce those in cultivation.

P.S. Pahio, I know you didn't post those photos to excuse poaching but just to show the plants, but this is a good occasion to make people aware once again about the problem :)

Re: Some crazy-huge rafflesianas...
 

Great to bring up the controversial issues for a nice debate again:smile: , it has been a long while since the last occured...

First of all, you got to know that, similar to any part of the world...poaching is illegal, just that there are no strict enforcement on the law in most of the South East Asia countries, speaking of real good system to run the country around this region, Singapore is the only one that can comes in mind...legal poaching is allowed in Malaysia for those aboriginal people only, each clan has their own territory, while their welfare is not properly taken care of, they rely on jungle resources to survive, and most of the time, you will be shock by their extremely low pricing(they are mainly into feeding themselves instead of making huge profit out of those resources), demand and supply apply here, which also leads to their seasonal hunting, it's not just nepenthes, many other resources ranging from petai(local bean for easting purposes), bugs, reptiles for exotic pets and many others, but there are only specific time for each, rainy season will keep them out of the jungle for most cases in Malaysia...

Well if you say that we only buy from professional here, that could be a case of oligopoly market or even monopoly market where prices will just kick hobbyists out of the game, and will eventually lead to poaching as neps can be bought at much lower price, in the case of Malaysia, I've been around some nurseries here and there, I've tried to get the best possible terms that can let them understand what I want from fellow forumers/hobbyists...but the result is rather disappointing, most of them are into selling rather than knowing what they are dealing with, for example, I've tried asking for sphagnum moss from around 15 different nursery around, non of them know what is that even if I tell them in the common trades term...if we were to rely on "professional nursery", how much premium price do we need to pay just for their knowledge, it's not the condition of competition, but most of our nursery here are still being very far away from "knowledgable"...

If the species is not in danger, you should collect seeds and cuttings yourself, or buy them. Select the best plants and introduce those in cultivation.
There are no best plant around, every one has different taste, especially when one "best" plant is taken and clone, if a variant of a nep is common out there, it won't be the best any more...

I agree that nep lover should not encourage poaching or wild collected nep by uprooting the whole plant, but a lot needs to be done to let this happens, the condition here is that jungles being illegally cleared off for plantation purposes, mainly oil palm(large range of products contain it, if you want to support anti poaching, might as well boycott every palm oil related product like soap, chocolate and so on...demand & supply as you know...)

protection needs a rather complete system where by you need the world to know what is going on here, illegal things being done to satisfy needs and wants of the whole world, hobbyist needs to refrain from getting wild plants, gov needs to make sure laws and regulations being carried out properly and so on...but under todays world where money rules(Still stuck with the retarded GDP ages...), it is almost impossible...

Re: Some crazy-huge rafflesianas...
 

BTW, hobbyist should not even exist if we were to protect those plants as do those cooperate that are into cloning plants(look at the pricing, you think that's for conservation? Profit maybe...with the quantities being supplied around...don't forget nep dun grow out of your table or toilet bowl out of a sudden, their original sources still comes from wild...)

Re: Some crazy-huge rafflesianas...
 

I agree with Marc and Sooxiwei to a certain extent that getting seeds/cuttings sensibly is the lesser evil of poaching and might help to reduce wild matured plants from being uprooted for sale.

It is really really sad when I see L, XL & XXL sized N. naga being offered on certain website for months. That means lots of mature plants have been removed and that species could be extinct now or really soon! Something should be done about it by legal authorities and I hope real nep enthusiast who care please don't buy these plants.

Re: Some crazy-huge rafflesianas...
 

collect and release is another problem this prob is most common up north, from Thailand onwards...you might be offered something called N. Naga, but is it true N. Naga or a hybrid of it...that's a huge trouble there, same applies to many other flora and fauna there...

Re: Some crazy-huge rafflesianas...
 

I don't have a precise idea of the nep growers/sellers/nurseries in Malaysia. It's sad to know from you that they are not many, not experienced and they only think about making as much money as possible.

I know more about Thailand: of course they think about money (all nurseries think about profit, I never said that western nurseries only think about conservation, they sell to make money, but they have a passion for those plants, so they think about conservation too, they don't poach - I'm not sure about the meaning of what you said: "hobbysts shouldn't even exist because all plants are of wild origin".... seeds and cuttings are fine, and companies use those to provide plants to hobbists), but many of them have a passion, they try to get some experience, they read the web for information, some of them are just growers becoming nurseries, and they learn on these forums (or by me and others in person) that poaching is not the right way to do, the right way is collect seeds and cuttings, leave the mother plant where it is, and go back just to take some more seeds and cuttings, when they are finished, maybe one year later.

The SE Asian nep community is very active, I see it on this forum but especially on facebook, where lots of SE asian growers asked for my friendship, I don't know who they are, but I see that they know eachother and they know me, so if they don't appear much on the western forums it's because of an english problem. I think many of these problems (including what you mentioned, "what is going on here") could be easily improved with (or creating) a local carnivorous plant society. A local group of people that takes decision and knows how to deal with the problem locally in the best way.
With the obvious limit that men are destroying the planet anyway :)

Re: Some crazy-huge rafflesianas...
 

In one way or another, if we collect the seeds or cutting, it is also considered as poaching, mother plant don't live forever, if every one happens to go and collect cuttings and seeds, it will definitely do harm for the long term as well, not to mention an extinction of nep in a specific area, but a restriction of variance of a species in those area where seeds or cutting is collected as we know that seeds give you surprises, but basals and cuttings will only resemble the basals...as for "hobbysts shouldn't even exist because all plants are of wild origin" , all I meant is, if we were to fully practice conservation, we should not even keep nep at home, while let it be in the wild, be it being bulldozered or burn down, taking is not just an excuse, in a different point of view, it could be a form of responsibility(government of south east asia keep an eye close on deforestation or poaching, we, the one with passion carry the responsibility with proper knowledge and skill to ensure that those that died don't died in vain)

as for nursery...it is a very sad case here, all nursery regardless of western or eastern, be it malaysia, thailand, italy or africa, the root of business is money, but the way majority of malaysian nursery operate their business is very much pushing their product out without the passion, thus they treat a plant as just an product instead of knowing it as a form of flora that have requirement just like all creatures that live...Passion is just not here, they do it purely for the money...I can only wish professionalism of this industry can improve as fast as it could...

Re: Some crazy-huge rafflesianas...
 

Well, there's a big difference between 1) taking 4-5 seeds capsules or 10 cuttings from 10 different plants, and come back to the same colony after one year and 2) go to a colony of 200 plants, dig up 20 adult plants, leave the other 180 and after 6 months take another 20.
A poacher is a person who follows the way number 2.
Of course for the way number 1 we all talk about responsible seed and cutting collections, we can't go and take all the fruits we find, and cut all plants down to the base every 6 months.
If a person follows the way number 1, he can be a conservationist and at the same time he can grow all the plants he wants and spread them in cultivation. Conservationist means - as far as I know - someone who cares and works for conservation, not a person who will not even touch a plant.

But again, isn't there a group of growers in your country, that can meet and cooperate, like in other countries?

Re: Some crazy-huge rafflesianas...
 

If a group of nep enthusiasts/hobbyists think like that and visit the same habitat or locality, the mother plants will soon be cut down to the ground :p I do not see the point of returning to collect cuttings from the same plant. Shouldn't a 'conservationist' aim to propagate plants from the one cutting (of each plant) that he initially took? Or seed pods for that matter....?

Re: Some crazy-huge rafflesianas...
 

As we're all discussing and debating this issues.... acres, hundred acres and thousand acres of forest with all kinds of flora and fauna were being clear and burnt away daily (weather permitting) without leaving any traces of it's original inhabitants (flora & fauna)... :crying:

Re: Some crazy-huge rafflesianas...
 

Agree, that's the point...there are not much difference, to take a few from time to time, after all, it is same as a giving a reason to "legally poach"

My personal view on poacher and those who do mass cloning, there are no difference, one is illegal thief and one is legal thief, it's like loan shark and bank...for those who do mass cloning, they get their sources similar to poacher, just that they make you think they are clean, while in some cases, make all the finger pointed at poachers(the one that source for them)...it's just the perception, you want to see the way they want you to, or to find out what actually happens...

Re: Some crazy-huge rafflesianas...
 

Conservation issues always bring out conflicting point of views and disagreements but it is good to note that all are for the preservation of wild nepenthes populations in it's natural habitat. There's no right or wrong as long as the thought and intention are noble. The main causes of nepenthes extinction are habitats destruction and to a certain extent poaching. We can never totally eradicate the root causes lest we stand in the way of developement.

Professional nurseries can play a leading role by lowering the price of their plants to make poaching unattractive. Just imagine buying a seed grown plant of selected clone with highly desirable traits at a cheaper price than a mediocre looking poached plant. Now who will want to buy a poached plants then.....but i have my doubt this will happen any time soon though:(

Re: Some crazy-huge rafflesianas...
 

Exactely. That's already happening, all over the world, and it happened in the past. Dionaea and sarracenia would be extinst if it was for poaching, but fortunately TC and wholesale nurseries stopped poaching. Now er are left with the urban development problem. Sorry Sooxiwei, in many years in these forums, it's the first time that I hear ideas like yours, fortunately! You sound quite negative, not realistic and superficial. I mean saying that poachers and professional nurseries are the same, jesus... :)

Of course, when I said about taking cuttings and seeds, it doesn't mean that 200 growers one after the other go to take cuttings every year in the same place, come on, try to understand what I mean. That doesn't happen in the real world. These countries are huge, responsible collectors will collect responsibly, probably once in their life. Another collector, somewhere else, will do the same. At least in Thailand, there are not 500 nep collectors collecting seeds and cuttings in the same place. There are a few collectors, most of them buy from professional nurseries, that propagate (mostly, not always) plants in the greenhouse, and then there are local poachers, that are villagers who know nothing about neps, they find the plants dif them all out, sell them, and the next day they try to find something else to sell. Comparing the two, sorry again, but it's crazy.

Rob-nepnut, you live there, how is the situation with growers? Do they know each other? Can they communicate, meet, take decisions, do conservation projects? This year I'll start trying to preserve the few thai nepenthes that are in danger, for example, and we are just two people...

Re: Some crazy-huge rafflesianas...
 

Agree Angkau, good to see how every one around think:smile:

I can only hope that what happens to Dionaea and Sarrs can have a Deja Vu on Nep...

As usual, econimical difference between countries makes thought different, one struggling for 3 meals a day, one bother to have classy meal...that makes us think differently, haha

It is nice that share thought with you, an honour indeed:smile:

The reason why I would see poachers and those TC clone people as the same is that...when the whole world is pointing fingers at poachers for this and that, is there any one who look at what TC clone or seeds grown businessperson is doing on the other side? First of all, common sense, where do they get the sample of propagation and stuff? Hand pick themselves or through poachers? As I can recall, nep doesn't propagate through spores, it doesn't grow out of your garden out of a sudden...

Secondly, if they are so called responsible or conservatives, why bother to slap different prices on different species, if conservatives is part of the purpose, why bother to have price discrimination, the price could be cheap to you as the matter of economical difference between our country, it remain as expensive in our region, when that happens, isn't this trigger the nature of human - Greed, why poacher poach in the first place? If the "mass propagated" plant is of less value, who would bother to poach, but because of the price given(so called covering operation cost), to most countries in South East Asia, poaching a plant and sell it at poaching price can feed you for a day(you see the difference here? The price might just be enough for you to have a cup of Latte in Starbuck but 3 meals to south east asian)...it's just the matter of fact, not that I want to be negative or being unrealistic...GDP per capita? Screw that, a politician can be a mega rich bastard, but the majority of the people might only be having the wage of his shoe cleaner...

Thirdly, it could be the case you mention, some one from rural area without any idea of what nep is will take it because of it's difference from other plant, when TC or "responsible" cooperate introduce mass quantity of this interesting plants to the public, isn't it spark the curiosity of the people, causing an interest in something special that leads to a demand for it? Don't feel suprise when local media states that nepenthes lid does close to trap insect, when they tells you nepenthes will "hunt" for their pray, I saw those rubbish myself while my little brother tell me about what he read on the children press here... hypocritically in the science part of that press which usually don't published non sense...can you imagine what the public know about nepenthes here? Even publisher/reporter with the task of finding out and clarify issues before publishing comes out with such thing...if all these over hyping happens, do you expect the public to refrain from buying when there is a good deal(even if they have no idea how to take care of it...)

As the most people around would say, urbanization causes depletion of nep...that's not that much of the case, it's more towards farming in south east asia, both malaysia and indonesia is having lot of illegal deforestation which wipe out everything for oil palm plantation...(cash under the desk is common here...)

it is a sad case here, to know if it's negative or not realistic, drop by to live here for few years to see it yourself, other wise, it is hard to understand "how can **** happens here" when it is not suppose to...hopefully "responsible" cooperate can make a difference here as soon as possible...

it is good to shares different thought around, keep it rolls on:1thumbup:

Re: Some crazy-huge rafflesianas...
 

I will reply in the same order:

1- I think your wrong perception of professional nuseries comes from not knowing how nep propagation works at that level. I'm one of those few travelers who sends material to these nurseries. These nurseries (4-5) receive a small packet of seeds each. Half spike will be more than enough. No cuttings, no plants, only a few seeds. They make these seeds germinating. When they germinate, they select 1 to 10 or more of these seedlings, the faster, biggest, more colorful etc. They will sell all the others. they keep the 10 selected clones in vitro. They give hormones, so that these 10 seedlings develop 4-5 growing points each. They split these growing points to make clones of these selected seedlings. They go on like this untile a good number is met, then they also sell these selected clones. Some of these nurseries will let some of these selected clones grow to adult size, to also produce cuttings or eventually to cress them and produce more seeds from the best plants. Nothing to do with poachers. That's how BE, EP and Wistuba work. MT is a bit out of the cp community and I wouldn't be surprised if they work in a less "clear" way. Most nurseries in the world are distributors for BE and EP.

2-believe it or not, the fact that plants are sold for a price, high or low, doesn't mean these nurseries are rich. Believe me, I worked in one, and I spoke with some others for many years, and I'm a small seller myself. There's no way to make serious money with carnivores. These nurseries make this because they have a passion, so even if they earn just enough to live a normal life, it's fine for them. A dear friend of mine, italian, has been selling cp for more than 10 years, the only nursery here specialized in this. In one weekend they made 3000 dollars at a fair. I thought "wow". but they told me how it works for the rest of the year, it's not like that, and eventually they make just enough to live a normal life. No surprise then if when they have something very precious, they make a higher price, it's normal business.

3-I'm not sure if i understand your third point. The "closing lid" syndrome is everywhere, here too, people know nothing about carnivores, it's normal and common. Thai villagers know exactely what they are poaching, they know that they can sell those plants at the market. They will sell 20 plants to 20 people. 18 of them are average people, and the plants will die. 2 of them will be people with a passion for nepenthes. What I'm saying is that at least these 2 people, for example, could explain the poachers that collecting seeds and cuttings, they can make money for a longer time without destroying their source of money (the plants). Often these poachers just don't know how propagation works. These 2 people, together with others (thats' why I talk about a local cp society), could go to the few nurseries that specialize in Nepenthes and tell them - if they don't know already - that instead of poaching, they can propagate with seeds and cuttings, to make more plants without destroying their source of money (the plants). These 2 or more people, could decide together to grow some plants to put back in the wild, in protected areas. It's not science fiction, and it's not something that happens in rich countries, I'm again just talking about what happens in Thailand, on the other side of the border :)

Re: Some crazy-huge rafflesianas...
 

I agree with marcelo. Tissue culture is the most sustainable way to make plants available en masse. However, it is time consuming and not always successful (just like lab flasking). Obviously the nurseries would need to cover the cost of their laboratories and other necessities. High price is arguable, as it really depends on rarity of species. We must remember that these nurseries are still a business and theur main aim is profit, so they cater mostly to serious hobbyists that are able to pay big bucks for a rare item. How would they survive by mass cloning nep truncata 'black' and selling it for USD$1? :p They also need to eat, you know...

Re: Some crazy-huge rafflesianas...
 

Wow, just few days away and this thread had sparked into an interesting discussion.
All I can say is conservation value in most Asian countries are still low. I believe most of us agree with this.

In western countries, conservationist scientist and groups bring endemic / rare / threatened plant and animal to court to stop development. In the history of conservation, these groups managed to stop a number of developments both on private and federal land just because there's a poor threatened species inside. What about here?

They too have committee in parliament which oversees conservation issues, universities were given big grant to do research on threatened species and in return their studies are used to debate and fight for these animals / plants right. What we have here?

Conservation value is high in their government and their education system, to the extend they poke their nose all over the world and collect lots of rare / almost extinct sp back to their country, be it legally of illegally (probably that's why Sarawak's government hate these ang moh scientist so much. They took out lots of our endemic sp BUT they cultivate them and make sure of their continuous existence). Their people, majority of them, normal people like you and me, have high conservation awareness level. They feel obliged to protect the plants and animal and report to authority when they see something not so correct is happening.

How about here? The mentality is absolutely opposite and you all aware of it. As the saying goes, everything start from ourselves. We can be the one who starts to cultivate the sense of protecting our rich nature. Start from ourself, our family, our children and perhaps, friends (provided your friend is not that Lizard King).

Oh! by the way, I absolutely agree to one of the many point mentioned by our friend from the previous post - in this land, where the national and opposition parties just all the time busy kicking each others asses and raising racial issues and got no time for conservation, we have to shoulder the conservation responsibility by ourselves - save them from the bulldozers.

I once talked to a forestry officer about this issue - protected species in about to be bulldozed area. He said saving them from there is still illegal without paper - its called poaching. I asked him, what about those protected species inside? He said each development will have NREB and EIA report and they will know what to do. What a sad answer because all I know no one did anything to save those plants in the Bakun dam area. Now that area is flooded. All I know is a few parties get windfall profit extracting timbers from this area.

That's so far the difference between the history of our countries' conservation value vs western's. And now we're stuck between 'To-save-them-or-not' issue. Perhaps my best personal conclusion is 'we should do the right thing at the right time and at the right place'.

You might be interested why I bragged so much - just the guilt inside me. I major in conservation in Uni but I worked for a timber and oil palm company after grad. LOL
Oh we have tissue culture company but guess what the enthusiast collectors tell me? I want the plant from the wild because I want it different from others. Duh!

Re: Some crazy-huge rafflesianas...
 

Hi Cello,
The people I know, you're discussing with them now... *biggrin2*

It's hard to find people like you that can drop eveything and travel around few months on end to do what's needed to be done (good for you :1thumbup:). I for one (and many others) are keen but we have commitments and priority for taking care of family and work. Heck, I hardly even have enough time to tend to my nep collection... :crying:

I guess what I wanted to say is that everyone have different opinion regarding this matter and everyone will do whatever they can in their own way to help protecting what's left of the wild nep species/hybrids. The main point is we all are trying to "protect" what's left of it.

A case in point, do you still remember the site that we went together in Hatyai where there're amp, mirabilis, x kuchingensis and gracilis?? It's all gone now... the whole area been bulldozed over and turned into rubber plantation. You can effectively categorize this as "local extinction" of those nep species/hybrids and I'm glad that I managed to save some of these neps and grow them in my collection.... so am I a poarcher or conservationist ??? *biggrin2*

I firmly believe the future of nep is in the hand of horticulture propogated via TC and man made seed grown cross of species and hybrid. Please don't shoot me yet as I DO NOT imply that we all should just give up hope on wild nep conservation but I always believe it's better to have a backup plan.... just in case *biggrin2*

Re: Some crazy-huge rafflesianas...
 

My point exactly..... Conservation through cultivation..!

Re: Some crazy-huge rafflesianas...
 

my personal point of view, dont shoot me too...

1. Do not poach any plant if you cant keep them alive, or you are not sure how to keep it alive.

2. If you really wish to poach, pls take only 1 or 2 smaller plants or cuttings, PLEASE leave the big MAMA plants !

3. If there is a choice, take seeds rather than the plant

Re: Some crazy-huge rafflesianas...
 

Ooooh, great, now I'm hearing wise words from everybody! *biggrin2*
Of course, each one does what he can, each one sees the solution in a different spot, but the thing is: you want to help.
For example, of course Rob, you're not a poacher, you're a conservationist, but the trap where we don't have to fall is "let's poach, let's buy from poachers, who cares, we're just helping conservation". People must be responsible, keep informed and do the right thing, and not give up. Then everybody can have different solutions.

So, let me go back with you, Rob, to what for me now is the important point (that's why I put some fire down here, to get some attention :laugh:):
I can travel around, I've much time (not money, but...), I have knowledge and enthusiasm to act in many ways, but of course this is not what I was demanding from you guys. Here in Italy, like in almost every country, we have a cp society. Workers, with families, not much time and not much money. Of course, I'm basically the only one (no job, no family, no money) who can travel around to see cp. But the others still are in a cp society, we are about 500 (when we started in '97 we were 15), there's a small group of people who makes a magazine, there's a forum, facebook, every year there's a general meeting and during spring many smaller meetings and open days (when a group of people visits someone's collection), with more or less people. We have a seeds bank, a bank for materials (peat, perlite, pots etc), a gemmae bank, a conservation project for the italian species... Like all cp societies, people are volunteeres that do what they can when they can, no more no less than what you have done for me in those couple of days, allowing me to describe a new species and to find important locations for others. I'm just saying: keep in touch with each other, make initiatives, get organized, meet when you can, form a group, be enthusiast, if everybody does a little, great things will come, it happened naturally all around the world, it happened in thailand in the last few years with the local cp society, it can happen there, just be enthusiastic!

When there will be an organized group taking decisions, then no problem, I will run there to go in the jungle, if you need someone for a conservation project :1thumbup:

Re: Some crazy-huge rafflesianas...
 

That's the whole point...we are way far behind, can't expect a car to do what airplane does...

If I were to tell you this place https://forum.petpitcher.net/showthread.php?t=4497
Few years back, it was labeled as reserved forest even in Google Map, today? Brushed that 2 words off, how safe is reserved forest in developing country? It is not something that you have in mind, reserved is not same thing as safe here, it is more like currently untouch but anything could happen in the next minute when under table money transaction happens...

It is sad that, from hear say, the plan for this area is to be turned into a grave yards...(that's when I'll be hunting skulls in the parliament and have those dead body in that grave yards...)

Agree, except point 3...dun wipe out all seeds like many of those ebay/internet seller are doing...that case would be an excuse to poach then to conserve...


Tissue culture is a good way...but does those company doing take and give back? Poach a plant directly or indirectly in the name of conservation, but after mass cloning, do they bother to return a plant or two back to nature? After a while when one variant of a species turns out to be common as a result of their mass cloning and hobbyist propagation, aren't they taking a few different variant from the wild again just because of profit? It's more like a cycle of dirty stuff going on but wrapped with clean looking outfit...it's more like doing a good thing to let you know they are good, but what happens behind the scene looks more towards sweeping under the carpet...

Knowing that they are capable of mass supply to the whole world...pricing is of cource arguable, imagining the quantity and the pricing not to forget their tools are in bulk price, wouldn't it be a million dollar profit industry than a cost covering one?

Takes time for that to happens...once a bunch of people with different opinion comes up to deal with something...it would most likely bring in politics to this hobby...which reminds me of my another hobby, betta keeping, although not for conservation issues(even though bunch of them are critically endangered, some extinct...)...people indirectly forming different fraction behind the scene and lot of finger pointing happening behind the scene(which is also the reason for me to slow down a lot on betta forum...)

As usual, different culture, different society, different economical situation...takes time for change to happens...

so should we start planning ahead on this conversation issues any time soon?:smile:

Re: Some crazy-huge rafflesianas...
 

well, if we want to start to conserve the plant, maybe we should have a plant cutting of both male and female so that IF the site is going to be destroyed in the future, and IF the government wish to rebuild the ecosystem at that place, maybe it will be the time for us to return the cutting, however, it seems like an impossible act, as our government still do not care about them but still focus on building and developing, BUT what can we do was actually take some of the plant cutting to propagate and plant it on several site on the same place that you have take the plant cutting so that the original species of the plant can be reintroduce back in the system, although this act might seems useless as it will not show noticeable effect unless IF it is done in a long run, what can we do more for it? In my point of view, i think that our forces are too small, so we can help IF and only IF the government realize its important or IF through educating peoples around us so that they will care more about it instead of poaching it, which seems like an ant trying to climb the MT.Kinabalu, which seems an impossible act just like MISSION IMPOSSIBLE IV

please count how many IF i have wrote..

Re: Some crazy-huge rafflesianas...
 

Allen,
Too many IFs until I also dunno what you're trying to say la.... *biggrin2*

The point is, what are the objectives that we are trying to achieve that is suitable and sustainable to do it in our country with our very limited time and resources. Which species/hybrids that we shd be concentrating on, who shd be doing the field work to do accessment on the current and latest developments (sites that are going/being clear away).

Cello,
Thanks for your explaination and your offer to help. :1thumbup:

I've another question for you, I would like to know what you would do in this case....

Let's say you come across a source that collected N. clipeata from the wild. Would you buy it so that you can help to increase the gene pool on the recorded clipeata existing in cultivation (TC clones and other individual plants) in the world?? As far as I understand, there're still too little different individuals of N. clipeata that make it viable to do species breeding program so that one day, we can create enough viable offspring to be distributed among cultivation or even to repopulate the origin site. To me, if there's only so many (very limited amount) different individual of N. clipeata exist now for breeding program, N. clipeata may as well be categorize as "Extinct"....

My question, if you have the means to obtain one or a few different distinct individual N. clipeata, do you feel it's your responsibility as an enthusiast and conservationist to obtain it so you can help in the endeavour eventhough you know the plants were poarched from the wild? :smile:

Re: Some crazy-huge rafflesianas...
 

Siwei, ok this is my view. I do not know if the companies who do TC do return plants to the wild, but if you just take this into consideration... Firstly, what makes you think they take the entire plant? For tissue culture, a small portion of the plant with a meristem is more than enough. So at most (if they are responsible), they would take only 1 or 2 cuttings off the mother plant, but the end result is many many more plants if you compare with taking a cutting, planting it, waiting for it to grow before cutting again to propagate. Think of how much TC companies have reduced pressure on the demand for wild CPs..! Every little plantlet that they sell satisfies the demand of a consumer to obtain a nepenthes, which otherwise would be obtained through illegal means (poaching). Hope this makes you understand better because Tc is definitely a good thing for conservation...

Re: Some crazy-huge rafflesianas...
 

I do agree on cultivation and tissue cloning as a good way for conservation, for my personal concern is, how things are done, take EP as an example, based in Australia, you got to know how difficult it is to get things in and out of Australia, for the price, can't blame them much since there are way too many barrier to get things out or into that country...but aren't they selling seeds grown plant even though it is clone from seeds, for me, you or whoever are into nepenthes keeping, can you imagine how long does it take for a nep to flower? It is not something that flower easily, bare in mind that male and female is not from the same plant(TIMING ISSUES EVEN IF YOU GOT A LARGE QUANTITY LIKE OUR FEW PLAYERS WHO GOT PRISON FOR THEM*biggrin2*)...if they were to purposely come over to get a small cut of plants, a cutting or two, how much would it cost them? With all the process of quarantine and so on, you think a cutting or two can survive that process? How long would it take for a nep to flower for them in order for them to pollinate their nep before going for TC...

If we were to religiously believe that the current way to cloning conservation is good enough, then prepare to say bye bye to other variation of a species/hybrid that are going to be burned down during illegal deforestation...AND MOST IMPORTANTLY, TO LIMIT OURSELVES TO WHAT IS THERE TODAY INSTEAD OF IMPROVING FOR A BETTER TOMORROW...

Re: Some crazy-huge rafflesianas...
 

To Rob, about N. clipeata:
I know there are 3 clones around Europe and in the mass production around the globe. Then I think there are more clones in Indonesia and Malaysia, if I'm not wrong, of course collected not exactely in a legal way, or obtained from poachers in old times, when the dangerous situation of this species wasn't in front of the eyes of most people. If I catch someone who has these "new" (I don't want to use negative words) clones, I would not buy them, unless they are going to die in the hands of this person. I would explain this guy that these plants are of low commercial value, but very high conservation value. I would try to find some place or institution where these plants can be collected all together and kept protected, possibly with the 3 "old" clones. If the guy who owns the plants doesn't want to do that himself, I would ask the price and maybe ask the cp community to give a contribute. But again, IF the plants are going to die in the hands of this person. If this person is a nep grower, let's just help him to keep the plants alive, let's buy the 3 "old" clones and let's keep all the plants close so that when they flower we make seeds. Or, in any case, let's freeze the pollen when a male flowers. Knowing more details would help :)

Sooxiwei, of course in all the world's associations happens what you said (fighting, politics etc), it's natural in a large group of people, it also happens in every single forum I know, regarding any kind of topic, it's called "community" :) But the worse mistake I've seen people doing here in my country, and in other countries, in societies, in politics, in the world etc, is saying "eeh, let's wait, let's see, time is needed, we'll see, maybe...". That's the tunnel that brings to the great Nothing *biggrin2* As you suggest, start a new initiative, here are some easy ideas for a good start, for you or anybody who wants to start (guys, I would found the Malaysian cp Society myself, but I'm italian, come on, I'm sure you can do it yourself!:biggrin:):
-open a new forum, in malaysian language, dedicated to all the growers of carnivorous plants in Malaysia. Post a message in other malaysian plant forums saying that you just created this forum.
-do the same thing on facebook, again in malaysian language.
-when you're all friends, organize a meeting somewhere, possibly somewhere where there is a cp collection. A nice weekend, eating and talking all together etc.
-once it's clear which people are the most interested, enthusiastic, organizative etc, form some kind of committee. You can make a magazine sent by email, or with photocopies, collecting money with internet, organize seed banks, conservation projects, up to your fantasy and enthusiasm. It only takes a few hours a month, it's just about enjoying a passion.
-arguing is very frequent in these communities, especially at the beginning, when new equilibers need to be set and everybody wants to speak and be right. So be very patient and don't destroy or ruin the whole community, leaving just because you argue with some people. Stay there, give your help, or wait in silence, but stay there. Remember: the longer you stay, even in silence, the more you will be respected in the future and the more you won't need to stay in silence anymore :1thumbup:.

Re: Some crazy-huge rafflesianas...
 

Well, it sounds like a good idea..:1thumbup:

Re: Some crazy-huge rafflesianas...
 

How do you overcome genetic bottleneck from inbreeding?

Re: Some crazy-huge rafflesianas...
 

with the so-called culling :smile:

Anyway, I'm not the one who invented the "clipeata project", so you shouldn't come to me for specific questions related to this, unless it's just to ask my perspective. The ICPS with its most professional cp scientists is involved in the project since a few years. Personally, before worrying about the bottleneck, I would try to breed the few clones we have. Otherwise we go back to the "we'll see, maybe, we need time, let's talk about it..."

Re: Some crazy-huge rafflesianas...
 

Hi Cello,
Thanks for the explaination about your views :smile:

Re: Some crazy-huge rafflesianas...
 

Haha, I don't have answer for that too. Nor lots of other conservationists. Its something which zoos all over the world headache with.
Conservation is tricky, you save a species, you need to save their genes too.

Re: Some crazy-huge rafflesianas...
 

Bare root cuttings of many plants do survive quarantine well enough for entry into Australia and all other countries. I'm not saying that this specifically applies for nepenthes, as I do not know how the propagules for EP are brought into the country in the first place, so I do not want to speculate. But bear in mind that cuttings of agricultural crops such as grapevines are frequently brought through quarantine.

If your statement "How long would it take for a nep to flower for them in order for them to pollinate their nep before going for TC..." is saying that
only the seeds can be used for tissue culture, that is incorrect. Any part of a plant containing a meristem can be used for tissue culture. That includes shoot tips, and also root tips (but less commonly used). So pollination is not absolutely necessary for TC.

By "If we were to religiously believe that the current way to cloning conservation is good enough, then prepare to say bye bye to other variation...", did you think I meant to tissue culture and re-introduce into the wild? I never meant that. What I intended to say was tissue culture plants for public sale, so that wild populations will remain (hopefully) safe from overcollection and other threats.