Re: In search of Nepenthes thorelii
 

Sorry to hear this Francois... but that's part of life. Who knows, maybe be with proper local network, you'll still have a chance to come back and observe the thorelii in situ one day. Don't give up hope just yet.

I don't think it's far fetch to see those wild collected thorelii ended up in Thailand as I'm aware that many wild collected neps are widely available for sale in Thailand. If you still really wanted to see the suspected thorelii, depending on your Thai connection, it's not impossible to locate those neps from Vietnam in Thai market.

Re: In search of Nepenthes thorelii
 

Hello,
I'm back in Phnom Penh, Cambodia. A last week of research. I hope it will be more positive than the previous week spent in neighbouring Vietnam.
Because I really want the CP community to know more about about this peculiar species, I will, roughly, explain the "thoreliigate'':
1/ Nepenthes of Indochina have been studied between 1896 and 1909. Then nothing for almost one century.
2/ Most of the plants coming from this part of the world into private collections have been labelled as "N. thorelii'', without serious researches being undertaken. Many people realize that all these thorelii plants are variable though quite similar.
Between 2004 and 2009, Marcello Catalano, Martin Cheek then myself start working on this group of plants. Conclusion is made that plants in cultivation do not fit the type description ad than the type locations haven't been visited since the first collections and the decription of the species.
Some of us hope to find again this ghost plant one day. Almost every location where it has been collected had been turned into plantations or heavily wounded by war (agent orange, napalm, B52's)". At one point, I even thought that the pecies might be extinct.
At this time, we didn't know how the species really look like.
3/ In 2007, I uncover new specimens in Paris herbarium. Adding that to the tyes of the species, I now have a clear idea of how the species looks.
4/ In november 2009, some Vietnamese growers post photos of a strange Nepenthes from Vietnam. I immediately recognize N. thorelii and exppress the wish to make sure that it is really N. thorelii and to study the population in the field.
5/ Quickly,these photos generates a lively discussion. Some of them show a Vietnamese with a shovel hand and dirty hands holding an uprooted plant.
6/ I managed to get a roughly indication of the plants whereabouts. Charles Clarke, Well known expert, even wishes to join me. Very nice.
7/ The discussion turns into a real scandal. The Vietnamese decide to withdraw and delete their pictures. They refuse to help me further.
8/ February 2010: I'm in Vietnam with Charles Clarke. After a few days of research, we uncover the locality: a swamp. After a few hours of pointless investigations, we find out that " some Vietnamese kids from Ho-Chi-Minh city came a few months ago and dug all the red plants".
9/ With Charles, we visit many localities, including the type locations (visited 150 to 100 years ago) but we're not successful. Eveything has been turned into plantations or habitations.
10/ Officially, this species is not in cultivation (although many growers persist in labelling some of the plans as N. thorelii). Recently, N. htorelii was one of the few species, with the elusive N. junguhnii (the spelling is not good ;-)) and N. mollis, which weren't pictures in Stewart McPherson monography. The species is not in culture and the only know location has been destroyed.
You will find below the infamous pictures and some pictures of the Paris specimens.
Nepenthes thorelii is the emblematic Nepenhes from Indchina and at the same time the least known of all. It might also be the most beautiful. I thik that many growers would fall in love with those ovoid lower pitchers and the same could be said about these upper pitchers, which look like some elongated N. aristolochioides upper pitchers.
From a conservation point of view, it t's disaster. From the pont of view of the botanist and the taxonomist, it's really bad news. Finding N. thorelii might have helped to elaborate a long awaited key to the Indochinese species.
I still have hope to find the species but I won't return to Vietnam without the suppport of the very small Vietnamese growers community (middle class kids). But, now, almost all of them seem completely unable to understand the issues of conservation and biodiveristy.



http://img193.imageshack.us/img193/3347/p1010549q.jpg
http://img51.imageshack.us/img51/1965/p1010553yd.jpg

Francois.

Re: In search of Nepenthes thorelii
 

Thanks for the story and the interesting "deleted" pics, this nep is certainly very different from the usual thorelii that I have come across. First glance looks like a N. sp Phanga aka viking but the decurrent and thick leaves points to a sp Tiger origin.

To me, it actually look very similar to some form of Giant Tigers and hybrids of viking with N. mirabilis or sp Tigers but I'm just an amateur :shy:.

Thanks again for sharing what you have experiened during your stay in Vietnam, it maybe a story without happy ending but at least all of us get a chance to learn, understand and witness more about the mysterious N. thorelii. I hope you stay in Cambodia will be a fruitful adventure. Looking forward for your field reports from Cambodia soon... Keep up the good work !! :1thumbup:

Re: In search of Nepenthes thorelii
 

Hey, guys - persons who civilization consider yourselves.
I don't know developed persons know how to behave...!!?
- used things not authority to discuss,to analyse and to compare about developed/non_developed and pround of yourselves....again and again...that's funny :)
- after be refused yr request politely, why you don't thinking, thinking and thinking about this, what's reasons ?? (maybe i was been persuadable by mr.Philip)
with anythings you did, you've never been welcome at VN
through by mr.Francoise and sb. at yr side, I understood civilization is what. (thks so much about this)
by the way, if you're civilization, you should know moderate and don't talkative by pick holes in my private.
finaly, VN community very angry with yr judge one sided.(maybe you got many info. fr some kids yet?!
I'm fell lucky by not civilization as you
with love
hvophuong

Re: In search of Nepenthes thorelii
 

Hmm, sounds like some internet translation thing going on here, not making much sense; but this is in fact an absolute disgrace and outrage in every way possible on every level imaginable! I only hope that someone comes clean in this terrible crime against nature and conservation. - Rich

Re: In search of Nepenthes thorelii
 

Those guys suck!
I think they have no legal right to do this "research" . It seems to be that this is not good place cause too many rude person in.
This may be a trap for VNese idiots.

Re: In search of Nepenthes thorelii
 

Now I know why are you so angry on the other forum. Well if you say "I think they have no legal right to do this "research" you have no legal right to dig up these plants although I know the government doesn't have rules agaisnt digging these plants up. Really..you should just cool down and explain. I don't even think that sockhom offended you did he? He was just trying to protect the plants. They are going to become extinct if someone like you keep digging them up for your own selfish reasons. Well if this is a trap for "VNese idiots" well you're one. The only rude person here is you who don't know what is "civilization"

Re: In search of Nepenthes thorelii
 

Hello everyone,
I'm new to the forum :laugh:.

For poacher and ofcouse for you Lamde83,
Wow ! Wow ! Dig plants, poacher is civilization ? There is nothing funny in here, the place where the plants found just a mountain with no protect at all. What you did is dig all plants and keep them at your house hope they will birth money for you ?!. Let think about this, that mountain is the plants house there is nobody protect the house, some thief come-in and kidnapper all the "plants" in this situation :crying:. What you did just like a criminal !. Also, grower is who love the plants so they create everything is the best for the plants, protect them, watering them, you is not a grower. Did I say something wrong ?.

Refuse to help Sockhom and what he say is true, you reply and said this is wrong do you have clue :confused: ?. You also say that these is so many rude person in here including you, sorry but nothing is wrong here !!!!. You are a English teacher right, what a shame ! Do you teach your student those bad word ?. I though that a teacher is who have clean mind, a good person for student can follow :confused:. You should stop act like a big man and grow your brain ( if needed you can use Super Thrive, yah yah they are good to help thing grow faster *biggrin2*). I want to repeat again those plants not belong to you ! They belong to the natural, belong to their home.

Re: In search of Nepenthes thorelii
 

Dear Mr.David/admin,

Suggestion remove all pic. mine. I don't agree s.one used for aim at distort objective or sth else. They're mine and I adv you - with authorize status, remove all of them.

I only dig 2 plant to seed and clone as sb at this forum (maybe I pround of myself not business, my aim' re research and preserve them) - but, as sb said, I'm not proud of this -digging in nature. So, i've never thought my pics. be shown on many forum--> who post is not good awareness that exploited to serve aim of retaliated against me ( I can't suport at VN cause I didn't belive him yet - he got good relation with best seller CPs at VN, only 1 person who support him to anywhere that he knew by he is good hunter CPs at VN to exploit in wild and sell them).At VN, everyone know about this. That's reason I couldn't help him and that's the reason no ones support him excepted only kid.
Maybe mr.Francois is idol with sb, but with his action to me on this forum and other forums - i disdain.
maybe sb who comes to VN is really expert and with reaserch aim, I and sb at VN helped but none.
why, why and why no ones can support him at VN --> one reason only : we have doubts about aim of trip.
now, see those pics. again, Do you still not collect his aim ?? :)
P/S: I'm sure that excepted 2 plants are growing at my home, no wild plants was dug. It's good news and bad news - I won't support sb to VN to "research" easilly. until now, only me know place which they grow-it's minimum things that I can do to protect them.

one again, pls don't see one-side and conclusion one-side as things which sb want you see as it.
thks for all yr comments and pls closely
thks you

Re: In search of Nepenthes thorelii
 

In sumarry:

1. They locate a species that has NOT been seen in nearly 100 years - VERY GOOD!

2. Then they dig up the plants roots and all! - VERY BAD!

3. Then they refuse to help Francois and Charles Clarke (two well known, respected and published botanists) ascertain their identity, (which would have made these guys heroes in the Nepenthes community), with absolute disrespect! - REALLY BAD!

4. Francois then finds that ALL of these plants have been dug up, roots and all, the entire population, from the only known location where they may have once existed! - REALLY VERY BAD!

5. Then they claim to have sold them all to someone in Thailand, where these plants may get lost with all the other pseudo-thorelii plants in street markets where they are probably doomed to die as house or garden plants by people who don't have a clue on how to grow them, not to mention risking the introduction of any root parasites from Vietnam such as nematodes, or the smuggling of poached plants into another country without documentation! - DOES IT GET ANY WORSE THAN THIS?

6. Now we hear that some of these guys are upset, angry and offended by the outrage that some of us have expressed over this act of rape against Mother Nature, (Well, D'UH!), which gives ALL of us a bad name, and a "black eye". I feel sorry for the legit Vietnamese growers. - This is like having someone demand an apology from you for being called a thief after they robbed your house! This is beyond ridiculous!

As I said earlier, they could have made SO much more money by farming and protecting these plants like crops in this site, harvesting some seed and cuttings to get them into cultivation and maybe some TC labs, and Francois and Charles Clarke would have given them due credit for this find, and they would have been well respected heroes and immortalized in scientific journals, and had a steady income for several years by selling cuttings and seed. What a shame! - Rich