N. Smilesii
 

Hi all,

anyone has N. smilesii from BE? how is the cultivation like?

please share, mine is still stunted and haven't grown much after i've got it months back....:confused:

Re: N. Smilesii
 

From the photos, N. Smilesii looks a lot like N. Thorelii from Neofarm. Can somebody educate the key difference of the two? Thx.

Re: N. Smilesii
 

alpiner - that is because the plant offered by neofarm is one of the indochinese species, possibly smilesii, or a hybrid of it....
the true thorelii is not in cultivation... atleast not widespread if it is....

Re: N. Smilesii
 

Alpiner, see if this helps:
http://www.marcellocatalano.com/indochina.html

Kevyn, is N. smilesii the only species that you're having problems with? Do you have a picture? If you know the plant's code, we can also know its origin, if it was from seed or if it was a clone (you can ask the code to your seller)... BE clones are selected for their vigour, while if it's a plant from seed you might have had some bad luck finding a weak individual... N. smilesii is a notoriously easy species to grow...

Re: N. Smilesii
 

I have this species for almost 6months already. It is a vigorous plant for me and has already basal growth almost the same on its mother plant. Planning to separate the plant anytime this week. My plant id is N. smilesii BE3316 clone.

Cheers,
Arnel

Re: N. Smilesii
 

good! As you see here: http://www.marcellocatalano.com/smilesii.htm
BE3316 is a batch of plants from seed and also clones... it's the one from Phu Kradung, Thailand! :)

Re: N. Smilesii
 

hi all,

yes, mine is from the Phu Kradung batch but what is the media used to pot it? i have changed its lighting condition from fully shaded to shaded 50% and then to shaded 30% and even afternoon direct sun for 1 hour but it wouldn't grow much. the next thing that i will do is to change its potting media. currently using dead shagnum moss with charcoal bits...and again yes, i am only having problem with this one at this moment.

what is your recommendation?

Re: N. Smilesii
 

the only problem that comes to mind is that maybe you have too high temperatures. This species is intermediate (around 1000 m, the plants from Phu Kradung grow at 1300 m), but it will also tolerate moderate lowland conditions. Many growers in Europe grow it in lowland conditions, but - for example - Thai growers have problems to grow this species in TROPICAL lowland conditions (which means sometimes just TOO lowland, too hot). I grew it in peat and perlite and even in straight sand, keeping it barely damp, it never gave me problems. It also tolerates quite a low humidity. Plants in the wild grow best in full sun for most part of the day, as most Nepenthes species. If you have a picture of your plant, maybe it could be easier to see what's going wrong.

Re: N. Smilesii
 

Now it had been warm and scorching hot weather for a few good months...my n. smilesii is not in its "prime condition"...pic attached here shows "over watering" symptom but the leaf will eventually pitchers and at the same time the oldest leaf dies off....making it looks like as if it never grows at all.... the closest pots are mirabilis, viking, ventricosa x northiana, hirsuta, bellii and they are growing well. what could have went wrong? :confused:

http://img830.imageshack.us/img830/3...1107080816.jpg

Re: N. Smilesii
 

alpiner, this is n. cf thorelii (as per the seller)

http://img803.imageshack.us/img803/2...1107061209.jpg

Re: N. Smilesii
 

That looks like overwatering symptoms. Plus with the hot weather torturing the plant, I suggest you change the media to something more airy.

Re: N. Smilesii
 

what do you suggest to replaced with after i have sphagnum moss + charcoal bits as media and still it shows overwatering? it will be sort of walking in "sarong" without underwear...chuckles....i'll try to repot it again with greater ratio of charcoal and hope it won't goes dehydrated.

i've also mentioned that the neighbouring pots of mirabilis, viking, ventricosa x northiana, hirsuta, bellii and they are growing well with the same media, sunlight and watering. what more could have went wrong? :confused:

Re: N. Smilesii
 

Sometimes, LFS can decompose very quickly and compact around the roots of the plant, suffocating it. I've experienced it several times. If you want to use charcoal bits again, you would have to crush them to smaller bits (0.5-1cm) so that more can be distributed evenly across the entire media and aerating the soil.

How many times you water a day? I can kinda guess that N smilesii doesn't tolerate overwatering, but thats just my opinion because I don't grow this species :smile:

Re: N. Smilesii
 

Hi there, both photos show N. smilesii :)
The compost looks fine, and if the weather is too hot, I wouldn't stress the plant changing the compost. The plant doesn't look so bad, it only seems to have been in too high temperature and I think spider mites arrived and caused even bigger problems (they come running when you try to grow highland species in lowland climates). The other smilesii you have looks fine, maybe is a stronger clone or it comes from lower altitudes. So: keep the plant in its compost, spray both sides of the leaves with a product against spidermites and keep it in shade. As soon as the weather gets cooler it should be fine. The new leaf looks very healthy. I really think it's a case of spidermites attacking a plant that is weak because of the temperature, I've seen that so many times. Of course, if the plant is stressed and it's gorwing slowly, don't overwater, just keep the compost barely damp. No need to say you shouldn't leave the pot in standing water.

Re: N. Smilesii
 

thanks marcello for the advice, i'll keep it more shaded for this (n. smilesii BE) and thank you too for the correct ID on the second plant (n. cf "thorelii")...

attached below is a n. "thorelii" from neofarm... what will be correct ID for it? :smile:

http://img405.imageshack.us/img405/7...1107081826.jpg

Re: N. Smilesii
 

it's a bit young to tell, but it should be N. suratensis... When you have the plant location, I always have an immediate answer of course, but with ONE plant, and young, it's a bit difficult... Maybe you got it as "N. tiger Surat" or "N. thorelii from Suratthani"... The bulk under the lid is very characteristic, as much as the acuminate leaf tips and the red new leaves, but the two last things can also appear in young plants of N. smilesii...

Re: N. Smilesii
 

oh really!! i always admire your knowledge in the "thorellii mess" and this one i acquired it as seed grown plant from neofarm thailand via fauzy (4zeplant) as n. "thorelii".

i hope others who had plants from these "thorelii" region could contribute pictures so that we can clear the doubt on whether we had a "real" thing or not....this is would be based on the identification provided by marcello as it has hinted that all the plant tags that we have is inaccurate.

marcello, i hope you dont mind to share your comprehensive knowledge right?*biggrin2*

Re: N. Smilesii
 

Oh, I already posted one message, I think one year ago, to say that anybody who has a "thorelii" or any not-well-identified plant from Indochina, can post his photos and we can try an identification. But people don't seem that interested. Having a "thorelii" or anything else seems to be the same to them. Plus, unfortunately I often have to make many questions that people can't always understand, or ask for details that people are not able to see in the plant, or - the easiest way - I ask for the province of origin of the plant, but most of the times people and sellers don't know that. I'm curious about your "cf. thorelii", because if it was sold with that name it means that the seller knows that it wasn't probably thorelii, but he could not recognize it as smilesii, which is strange. Where did you buy it?

Re: N. Smilesii
 

thanks marcello,

for my case, i would not be afraid or feel embarassed to ask in order to clear doubts that i have as long as it does not go overboard by giving wrong information and wild guesses. you speak from experience and knowledge therefore you did good to the cp community. :1thumbup:

the n. cf "thorelii" is from a nepenthes collector's collection and the seeds are obtained from a seller in vietnam. he managed to germinate and raised it to a good size and sell off with the tag nepenthes cf "thorelii" and i bought 2 of these. *biggrin2*

perhaps what was written in www.neofarmthailand.com is quite true (and confusing) as it mentioned about 3 types of thorelii in thailand, namely thorelii "laos tiger", thorelii "cambodia" and thorelii "tiger". and my n. "thorelii" from neofarm via fauzy might be one of them..... :laugh:

based on my conclusion, the knowledge about nepenthes and especially from the "thorelii" 's big family from malaysian border and towards upnorth has been ignored and often confused with each other. :glare:

below is a picture that i've snapped during my visit to one of the collector's home and i hope he dont mine that i have shared it here. it was labelled as thorelii too....

marcello, what could this be? i am "ready" for the answer....:closedeyes:
http://img585.imageshack.us/img585/7...reliipakde.jpg

however this one he labelled it as n. smilesii...
http://img151.imageshack.us/img151/7...lesiipakde.jpg

Re: N. Smilesii
 

A little problem now arises: last year some Viet guys found the actual N. thorelii, poached some plants and introduced them in cultivation, solding them around SE Asia. There was a big fuss about this fact, and as a result another big hunt for nepenthes in Vietnam, so that even more plants (what species?) were collected, possibly by mean of seeds and cuttings, and sold as thorelii or cf. thorelii. Unfortunately we don't know MUCH about N. thorelii, we basically know the very peculiar shape of the lower pitchers, which reminds of N. mirabilis var. globosa, while the rest of the plant should basically look like N. smilesii (narrow leaves, hairy, with acute tips). In Vietnam we should also have N. kampotiana and for sure there's a lot of N. smilesii. We still have to properly explore southern Cambodia and southern Vietnam, to see where one species finishes and the other one begins, and if there are some new species.

In Thailand, instead, we have more species, all sold around as "tiger" or "thorelii", with further nickname attached, like giant tiger, laos tiger, giant thorelii tiger, Surat tiger, giant thorelii Phang.nga etc. Knowing the province helps a lot. Another good thing is that Neofarm has been selling the same clones for a long time (since when in 2004, together with NF's owner, we were trying all together to understand this indochinese mess), so we know what most of them are (what is called "thorelii cambodia" is N. kampotiana, for example).

About the plant in the picture (it seems to me both photos show the same plant), if you don't own the plant we only have the photos of the pitchers, so we can't check other details in person. The photos tell me it's N. kampotiana, but we should check the indumentum (the hair on the vegetative parts), because kampotiana is completely glabrous with only some VERY small hair over tendril and pitchers. N. smilesii is definately hairy and as far as we know, N. thorelii too.

Re: N. Smilesii
 

Hi Kevyn,
Good informative thread. Unfortunately my wife has taken my camera to business trip, so will take picture when I hv it back. I do hv older photos, but it's within hundreds of photo due to poor photo management. With 2 schooling kids and 1 toddler crying for mother, don't think I've time or mood to switch on my home pc.
I'll post whichever happen first... :unsure:

Re: N. Smilesii
 

alpiner,

thanks, however the credits should go to marcello, i might have started this thread but most of the information is from marcello...

i hope more people will share their plants from the "thorelii mess" so that our plants can be properly IDed thus create awareness for everyone...

will wait for your pics collection and happy babysitting!!

Re: N. Smilesii
 

As promised, here's my photo for neofarm 'thorelii' and comparison with smilesii. Hopefully marcelo is still around.
1. Newly opened 'thorelii' pitcher, from a rather young plant. Let me know if you prefer an older pitcher that shows more peristom.
http://img824.imageshack.us/img824/4817/nfthorelii1.jpg
2. Comparison with Smilesii side by side. Smilesii is more elongated, and spots within pitcher
http://img638.imageshack.us/img638/7756/smelesii1.jpg

Re: N. Smilesii
 

Re: N. Smilesii
 

hi there,
spots inside the pitcher and its length are unfortunately useless for identification. Again:
1) seller, code, nickname given by seller and province of origin can help (for both your "smilesii" and "thorelii")
2) show the whole plants and let's see if we can check and find some features even if it's a young specimen.
Cello

Re: N. Smilesii
 

attached are the links for the matured n. cf "thorelii"...

what is your comments? pictures and plants belongs to Yuping.
you can find him in FB under Yuping Aping....


http://www.facebook.com/profile.php?...8814280&type=1

http://www.facebook.com/profile.php?...2&id=625177280

http://www.facebook.com/profile.php?...1&id=625177280

http://www.facebook.com/profile.php?...9&id=625177280

http://www.facebook.com/profile.php?...8&id=625177280

http://www.facebook.com/profile.php?...6&id=625177280

http://www.facebook.com/profile.php?...5&id=625177280

http://www.facebook.com/profile.php?...4&id=625177280

http://www.facebook.com/profile.php?...3&id=625177280

http://www.facebook.com/profile.php?...5&id=625177280

http://www.facebook.com/profile.php?...3&id=625177280

http://www.facebook.com/profile.php?...4&id=625177280

Re: N. Smilesii
 

Hi Cello,
I bought my plants from other cp-ers. So no code or detailed origin, as compared to buying from vendors. Some photos for nf 'thorelii':-
http://img6.imageshack.us/img6/1526/nfthorelii2.jpg
http://img192.imageshack.us/img192/5259/nfthorelii4.jpg
http://img12.imageshack.us/img12/1919/nfthorelii3.jpg

And Smilesii
http://img10.imageshack.us/img10/6035/smilesii2.jpg
http://img202.imageshack.us/img202/5048/smilesii3.jpg
http://img143.imageshack.us/img143/9457/smilesii4.jpg

Re: N. Smilesii
 

Kevin: that's an interesting plant, I can see that the leaves are hairy, which rules out N. kampotiana, and the pitchers look a bit like N. thorelii. Keep in mind that N. thorelii and N. smilesii might eventually result to be very close (Cheek even said they might be the same thing, but to me that's too extreme), especially because we don't know much about the range of shapes that N. smilesii might have in southern Vietnam, a part from Dalat. We don't know much about N. thorelii, but we know it's hairy like smilesii, while the pitchers are rounder, sometimes (or always?) globose. Ask Yuping where he got his plant, if it comes as a cutting or tuber from a not-well-identified source in Vietnam (=basically one of the plants poached last year) then it's likely N. thorelii.

Re: N. Smilesii
 

Since I've the advantage of touching the plants, I doubt that they're both the same species. The leaf of 'thorelii' is thinner like lowland neps eg viking's. The Smilesii gives me the feeling close to but slight thinner than something like ventrata or xIndah. Even though the smilesii is bigger(~1.5x wider leaf span) than 'thorelii', the leaf is narrower too. With my old eyes, I don't see any hair at the base of the leaf. I can use macro lens this weekend for closeups. Other than the center of the plants, any other locations that'll help to id?

Re: N. Smilesii
 

a photo of the underside of the lid of the latest pitchers for both plants, and a couple more leaf tips for "smilesii" would be good.

On the "smilesii" I can see two acuminate tips (end of the leaf narrowing abruptly and not gradually, as opposite to "acute"). The species of this group that have such feature and linear leaves are N. suratensis, andamana and bokorensis. Honestly this doesn't look like bokorensis or andamana. The hair around the base of the leaf is typical of all 3 species (not 100% sure about bokorensis, that has very variable indumentum). The bulk under the lid is definately diagnostic of N. suratensis. The reddish new leaves are also typical of suratensis. When I say this keeep in mind that there is some variability, which means: bulk under the lid means suratensis, but not all suratensis have bulk under lid; reddish new leaves mean suratensis, but not all suratensis have reddish new leaves; hair around base of leaf means suratensis, but... etc.


Larger and thicker or thinner leaves, as you noticed that, unfortunately are not characters that can be used for an ID, especially for plants in cultivation.