Re: Some crazy-huge rafflesianas...
 

I agree with marcelo. Tissue culture is the most sustainable way to make plants available en masse. However, it is time consuming and not always successful (just like lab flasking). Obviously the nurseries would need to cover the cost of their laboratories and other necessities. High price is arguable, as it really depends on rarity of species. We must remember that these nurseries are still a business and theur main aim is profit, so they cater mostly to serious hobbyists that are able to pay big bucks for a rare item. How would they survive by mass cloning nep truncata 'black' and selling it for USD$1? :p They also need to eat, you know...

Re: Some crazy-huge rafflesianas...
 

Wow, just few days away and this thread had sparked into an interesting discussion.
All I can say is conservation value in most Asian countries are still low. I believe most of us agree with this.

In western countries, conservationist scientist and groups bring endemic / rare / threatened plant and animal to court to stop development. In the history of conservation, these groups managed to stop a number of developments both on private and federal land just because there's a poor threatened species inside. What about here?

They too have committee in parliament which oversees conservation issues, universities were given big grant to do research on threatened species and in return their studies are used to debate and fight for these animals / plants right. What we have here?

Conservation value is high in their government and their education system, to the extend they poke their nose all over the world and collect lots of rare / almost extinct sp back to their country, be it legally of illegally (probably that's why Sarawak's government hate these ang moh scientist so much. They took out lots of our endemic sp BUT they cultivate them and make sure of their continuous existence). Their people, majority of them, normal people like you and me, have high conservation awareness level. They feel obliged to protect the plants and animal and report to authority when they see something not so correct is happening.

How about here? The mentality is absolutely opposite and you all aware of it. As the saying goes, everything start from ourselves. We can be the one who starts to cultivate the sense of protecting our rich nature. Start from ourself, our family, our children and perhaps, friends (provided your friend is not that Lizard King).

Oh! by the way, I absolutely agree to one of the many point mentioned by our friend from the previous post - in this land, where the national and opposition parties just all the time busy kicking each others asses and raising racial issues and got no time for conservation, we have to shoulder the conservation responsibility by ourselves - save them from the bulldozers.

I once talked to a forestry officer about this issue - protected species in about to be bulldozed area. He said saving them from there is still illegal without paper - its called poaching. I asked him, what about those protected species inside? He said each development will have NREB and EIA report and they will know what to do. What a sad answer because all I know no one did anything to save those plants in the Bakun dam area. Now that area is flooded. All I know is a few parties get windfall profit extracting timbers from this area.

That's so far the difference between the history of our countries' conservation value vs western's. And now we're stuck between 'To-save-them-or-not' issue. Perhaps my best personal conclusion is 'we should do the right thing at the right time and at the right place'.

You might be interested why I bragged so much - just the guilt inside me. I major in conservation in Uni but I worked for a timber and oil palm company after grad. LOL
Oh we have tissue culture company but guess what the enthusiast collectors tell me? I want the plant from the wild because I want it different from others. Duh!

Re: Some crazy-huge rafflesianas...
 

Hi Cello,
The people I know, you're discussing with them now... *biggrin2*

It's hard to find people like you that can drop eveything and travel around few months on end to do what's needed to be done (good for you :1thumbup:). I for one (and many others) are keen but we have commitments and priority for taking care of family and work. Heck, I hardly even have enough time to tend to my nep collection... :crying:

I guess what I wanted to say is that everyone have different opinion regarding this matter and everyone will do whatever they can in their own way to help protecting what's left of the wild nep species/hybrids. The main point is we all are trying to "protect" what's left of it.

A case in point, do you still remember the site that we went together in Hatyai where there're amp, mirabilis, x kuchingensis and gracilis?? It's all gone now... the whole area been bulldozed over and turned into rubber plantation. You can effectively categorize this as "local extinction" of those nep species/hybrids and I'm glad that I managed to save some of these neps and grow them in my collection.... so am I a poarcher or conservationist ??? *biggrin2*

I firmly believe the future of nep is in the hand of horticulture propogated via TC and man made seed grown cross of species and hybrid. Please don't shoot me yet as I DO NOT imply that we all should just give up hope on wild nep conservation but I always believe it's better to have a backup plan.... just in case *biggrin2*

Re: Some crazy-huge rafflesianas...
 

My point exactly..... Conservation through cultivation..!

Re: Some crazy-huge rafflesianas...
 

my personal point of view, dont shoot me too...

1. Do not poach any plant if you cant keep them alive, or you are not sure how to keep it alive.

2. If you really wish to poach, pls take only 1 or 2 smaller plants or cuttings, PLEASE leave the big MAMA plants !

3. If there is a choice, take seeds rather than the plant

Re: Some crazy-huge rafflesianas...
 

Ooooh, great, now I'm hearing wise words from everybody! *biggrin2*
Of course, each one does what he can, each one sees the solution in a different spot, but the thing is: you want to help.
For example, of course Rob, you're not a poacher, you're a conservationist, but the trap where we don't have to fall is "let's poach, let's buy from poachers, who cares, we're just helping conservation". People must be responsible, keep informed and do the right thing, and not give up. Then everybody can have different solutions.

So, let me go back with you, Rob, to what for me now is the important point (that's why I put some fire down here, to get some attention :laugh:):
I can travel around, I've much time (not money, but...), I have knowledge and enthusiasm to act in many ways, but of course this is not what I was demanding from you guys. Here in Italy, like in almost every country, we have a cp society. Workers, with families, not much time and not much money. Of course, I'm basically the only one (no job, no family, no money) who can travel around to see cp. But the others still are in a cp society, we are about 500 (when we started in '97 we were 15), there's a small group of people who makes a magazine, there's a forum, facebook, every year there's a general meeting and during spring many smaller meetings and open days (when a group of people visits someone's collection), with more or less people. We have a seeds bank, a bank for materials (peat, perlite, pots etc), a gemmae bank, a conservation project for the italian species... Like all cp societies, people are volunteeres that do what they can when they can, no more no less than what you have done for me in those couple of days, allowing me to describe a new species and to find important locations for others. I'm just saying: keep in touch with each other, make initiatives, get organized, meet when you can, form a group, be enthusiast, if everybody does a little, great things will come, it happened naturally all around the world, it happened in thailand in the last few years with the local cp society, it can happen there, just be enthusiastic!

When there will be an organized group taking decisions, then no problem, I will run there to go in the jungle, if you need someone for a conservation project :1thumbup:

Re: Some crazy-huge rafflesianas...
 

That's the whole point...we are way far behind, can't expect a car to do what airplane does...

If I were to tell you this place https://forum.petpitcher.net/showthread.php?t=4497
Few years back, it was labeled as reserved forest even in Google Map, today? Brushed that 2 words off, how safe is reserved forest in developing country? It is not something that you have in mind, reserved is not same thing as safe here, it is more like currently untouch but anything could happen in the next minute when under table money transaction happens...

It is sad that, from hear say, the plan for this area is to be turned into a grave yards...(that's when I'll be hunting skulls in the parliament and have those dead body in that grave yards...)

Agree, except point 3...dun wipe out all seeds like many of those ebay/internet seller are doing...that case would be an excuse to poach then to conserve...


Tissue culture is a good way...but does those company doing take and give back? Poach a plant directly or indirectly in the name of conservation, but after mass cloning, do they bother to return a plant or two back to nature? After a while when one variant of a species turns out to be common as a result of their mass cloning and hobbyist propagation, aren't they taking a few different variant from the wild again just because of profit? It's more like a cycle of dirty stuff going on but wrapped with clean looking outfit...it's more like doing a good thing to let you know they are good, but what happens behind the scene looks more towards sweeping under the carpet...

Knowing that they are capable of mass supply to the whole world...pricing is of cource arguable, imagining the quantity and the pricing not to forget their tools are in bulk price, wouldn't it be a million dollar profit industry than a cost covering one?

Takes time for that to happens...once a bunch of people with different opinion comes up to deal with something...it would most likely bring in politics to this hobby...which reminds me of my another hobby, betta keeping, although not for conservation issues(even though bunch of them are critically endangered, some extinct...)...people indirectly forming different fraction behind the scene and lot of finger pointing happening behind the scene(which is also the reason for me to slow down a lot on betta forum...)

As usual, different culture, different society, different economical situation...takes time for change to happens...

so should we start planning ahead on this conversation issues any time soon?:smile:

Re: Some crazy-huge rafflesianas...
 

well, if we want to start to conserve the plant, maybe we should have a plant cutting of both male and female so that IF the site is going to be destroyed in the future, and IF the government wish to rebuild the ecosystem at that place, maybe it will be the time for us to return the cutting, however, it seems like an impossible act, as our government still do not care about them but still focus on building and developing, BUT what can we do was actually take some of the plant cutting to propagate and plant it on several site on the same place that you have take the plant cutting so that the original species of the plant can be reintroduce back in the system, although this act might seems useless as it will not show noticeable effect unless IF it is done in a long run, what can we do more for it? In my point of view, i think that our forces are too small, so we can help IF and only IF the government realize its important or IF through educating peoples around us so that they will care more about it instead of poaching it, which seems like an ant trying to climb the MT.Kinabalu, which seems an impossible act just like MISSION IMPOSSIBLE IV

please count how many IF i have wrote..

Re: Some crazy-huge rafflesianas...
 

Allen,
Too many IFs until I also dunno what you're trying to say la.... *biggrin2*

The point is, what are the objectives that we are trying to achieve that is suitable and sustainable to do it in our country with our very limited time and resources. Which species/hybrids that we shd be concentrating on, who shd be doing the field work to do accessment on the current and latest developments (sites that are going/being clear away).

Cello,
Thanks for your explaination and your offer to help. :1thumbup:

I've another question for you, I would like to know what you would do in this case....

Let's say you come across a source that collected N. clipeata from the wild. Would you buy it so that you can help to increase the gene pool on the recorded clipeata existing in cultivation (TC clones and other individual plants) in the world?? As far as I understand, there're still too little different individuals of N. clipeata that make it viable to do species breeding program so that one day, we can create enough viable offspring to be distributed among cultivation or even to repopulate the origin site. To me, if there's only so many (very limited amount) different individual of N. clipeata exist now for breeding program, N. clipeata may as well be categorize as "Extinct"....

My question, if you have the means to obtain one or a few different distinct individual N. clipeata, do you feel it's your responsibility as an enthusiast and conservationist to obtain it so you can help in the endeavour eventhough you know the plants were poarched from the wild? :smile:

Re: Some crazy-huge rafflesianas...
 

Siwei, ok this is my view. I do not know if the companies who do TC do return plants to the wild, but if you just take this into consideration... Firstly, what makes you think they take the entire plant? For tissue culture, a small portion of the plant with a meristem is more than enough. So at most (if they are responsible), they would take only 1 or 2 cuttings off the mother plant, but the end result is many many more plants if you compare with taking a cutting, planting it, waiting for it to grow before cutting again to propagate. Think of how much TC companies have reduced pressure on the demand for wild CPs..! Every little plantlet that they sell satisfies the demand of a consumer to obtain a nepenthes, which otherwise would be obtained through illegal means (poaching). Hope this makes you understand better because Tc is definitely a good thing for conservation...