Poaching
 

Went trekking today and very sad to see a poacher on my way back:mad:
When I saw the car park by the roadside I can guess that most likely is looking for flora/fauna... especially pitcher.

I continue my way back and I saw the guy (chinese) down the hill looking for plants, he look suspicious so I took a photo of what he's doing.
http://i247.photobucket.com/albums/g...07092009s1.jpg
I suspect that he is cutting pitcher so I turn back to find out and then saw him already came up to the roadside, when he saw me coming over he quickly put a big plastic bag fill with pitcher plants into his car and drove away.
From the amount of pitcher he took, I believe he's a commercial grower.
Those pitcher that he took are HL neps like macfarlanei and sanguinea:crying:

Re: Poacher
 

From the looks of the car and the way he is dress, I think this is not a commercial grower but a private collector... one who is greedy enough to poach a whole bag full of neps.

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Hate poachers.....Report him to the police!

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Sad to see this... Without proper enforcement, there's only so much we can do.

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well, how do you expect them to know plucking some neps from the wild is illegal. With the rapid development going on in this country, it is just the matter of time these neps and plants are all going to be destroyed, a real clear example would be Cyberjaya, today you might saw a bunch of n. gracilis growing abundantly, by tomorrow, you might saw the same spot being wiped up totally for construction. Taking a bunch of neps doesn't necessarily means he will own all of it, he might distribute them around to close friends like how rural area people do before any land is destroyed for oil palm estate, the point is that he ensure survival of species of nep from that area before demolition begin or might even end up entering this hobby and found out such action is illegal/unethical. Don't just judge it in one way as this is not fair to people who are unaware cping ethic which are quite unknown to outsider:smile:

Re: Poacher
 

Unless the place is really doomed like what sooxiwei said(development etc), then I think taking some is OK. But this is another story. Perhaps he does not know the rules regarding wild nepenthes poaching. I have a relative who told me his neighbour has some wild neps. They did not know poacj=hing is really illegal. The rules must be made clearer for everyone to see. That's just my opinion so i hope no conflict happens.(Actually if I had the chance I would take 1 too, hehehe)

Re: Poacher
 

if the guy just took 1/2 cuttings for his own collection or for the survival of the species or for whatever reason.. then I dont mind coz sometime I oso taking plants cuttings home, but taking a big bag of the same species that would be too much.
If he want to distribute the species to friends, harvesting from the wild would be a wrong way to do it, propagation should be the correct way.

Re: Poacher
 

Hehehe, and chances are the person is maybe a member of this forum, he will be shy to say so already. :(

You guys are so lucky that there are still nepenthes along your roads, here, nothing at all anymore! :(

TTFN
Arvin

Re: Poacher
 

Its MUA!!! Hahahah jking i wish i can drive and become tat tall...Haiz sangs macs and ramps gone...

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Agree with you Soo.:smile:

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I have mixed feelings about this as well. So often massive clearing and habitat destruction goes on without any warning or public notice, one day it's pristine habitat, the next time it may be fenced off, leveled, burned down, bulldozed and plowed into the ground and all. Grabbing a few cuttings shouldn't hurt the population, but I do hope he left the roots and primary growing stocks alone. Getting proper permissions is often next to impossible, especially if a big corporation owns the land. I know, and I've tried, even here in NJ, USA! In a perfect world, .... but we happen to live in "Planet Reality", with politics, business, greed and all. - Rich

Re: Poacher
 

Ok, let me just pen out the situation in Malaysia. This is only my observation and everyone is free to have their own ideas and make their own decision on how they will act.

I understand the arguments on poaching and how on one hand the government have laws to protect these plants, but on another allows the land to be destroyed in the name of development. Like what rsivertsen said... we live in the real world. This fact is very real in Malaysia. However, eventhough I am upset about the situation, we must also consider the size of our country. Malaysia is not big if we compare with countries such as Australia or USA. The population is growing and the governement is also presured to build more infrastructure and develope the land to accomodate the population. Where would the population go if it keeps increasing and no new houses are built? Where can we draw the line betwen man and plant? It is also a fact that some species are only endemic to Malaysia. Can we say because our land is limited, we have the right to destroy them? On the other hand, can we say plants are more improtant than people, or shoudl we relocate people for the sake of plants? The line is very blurr and is difficult to draw.

Yes, it can be argued that the habitat may be destroyed for development. Therefore, logically we should take the plants in order to save them. But can we confirm (eg. the location in this thread) that it will be destroyed? I would agree and remove the plants too if I know the land is going to be develope. But I think in alot of instances we do not know.

Also, we need to be careful and be informed about the laws in Malaysia. Just in case members do not know, Malaysian laws are very strict on poaching (especially endangered plants) or taking of any plant material or plant part from the wild. Read here if you are interested to know. You can be liable up to RM50,000 and imprisoned for up to 5 years. However, at the moment enforcement is still very relaxed and enforcement officers are concentrating their efforts at entry/exit points in the country. But, there is no garantee that they will not step up their efforts. If you are trying to poach Nepenthes from Cameron Highlands, be warned. In the past few years NGOs have been working with the forestry department to look out for poachers of orchids and... yes... Nepenthes as well. Already, a few enthusiasts and nursery owners have be caught.

To us, we might feel it is right to take the plants becasue the land will be developed, but the law says otherwise. It would seem unfair in a situation like this if we are caught and have to face the wrath of the law... but is it? Perhaps there are other venues or we should look for the right channel/way to forward our concerns to the right people.

My next point is a question of your conscience. Eventhough there is lack of enforcement, do you feel comfortable breaking the law in your country? If you do, by all means. I am not here to judge or tell you what to do as I am guilty of breaking some minor laws in my life as well. Who doesn't?

Nepenthes usually grows in disturbed areas where the forest have been cleared. This also brings up a question in my mind. Does developement help create habitats for Neps? In Borneo, forest are burnt by the indegenous people of the land for growing crops on a regular basis. It is for the survival of their people. This process helps create open site for Nepenthes to thrive. The plants are burnt and new seedlings take over the landscape or they grow back from their roots.

Talking about growing crops, pollution from farming and agriculture activities using artificial fertilisers and pesticides poisons the soil or water too and this inhibit/kills the plants. Again, can we stop farming and agriculture? where do we draw the line again or how do we fix this problem?

At the moment there are still alot of Malaysians who do not know about Neps or do not have an interest in growing these plants, but the numbers are increasing thanks to all of you (It's a good thing! :) ). But, if every enthusiasts decides to collect Neps from their habitat or roadside when they sees them, what will happen to the habitat and number of plants in the wild? Imagine if the interest in Neps is similar to that of orchid enthusiasts in Malaysia. Add that to development and poaching from unscrupulous nursery owners and guess what will happen?

I am not saying a particular way is right or wrong as there are many angles to this argument. To be honest I am not sure what stand to take sometimes but I think each of us should try our best in each situation and I think we can help slow down the process of the plants dissapearing in the wild. We have to decide in each given situation and sometimes, in the eyes of others, what we decide can be seen as right or wrong. But if our conscience is clear, go for it. I believe a true Nepenthes enthusiasts would want to do what is right for their beloved plants eventhough sometimes that judgement can be clouded by their desire and the excitement of poaching the plant.

I think In Malaysia, there is a lack of information and awareness. If the government and people are more aware and informed about these plants, I believe some decisions that they make will be different, and I think that will help somewhat in preserving the plants. That is why one of my purpose for this forum is to inform and create awareness. All of you here are part of this good work in creating awareness and giving out information. I have checked out some related Malaysain Government agencies' website in the past and none of them have inforamtion on these plants. It was only very recently that I noticed some information on the sites. Perhaps the government is also getting more aware and we should rejoice that there is a glimmer of hope.

Re: Poacher
 

Good article, David.

Here's my opinion regarding this issue. Referring to BE's motto "Conservation Through Cultivation", this seems to be the future for nepenthes in many part of the world. Does that mean anyone should be encourage and take it upon him/herself to go collect wild neps as much as possible?

There's a very fine line between "Conservation" and "Poarching". If one collect cuttings or seeds (limited cuttings or seeds collection) and spread it among cultivation (by that I mean FOC) in order to preserve a certain species endemic in a place where development is unavoidable, then I feel it's our responsibility (however legal issue is another story).

What I worried the most, are those acted in the name of "conservation" but on the other hand collect wild neps in large quantities with "leave no behind" attitude to plunder the wild neps population for personal gain be it to sell or for trade. This action in the long run, will do more harm than good.

There's right or wrong but there's always a "grey" area.... I would like to know how famous nurseries obtained their various species of nepenthes in the first place(not to accuse them but just to make a point), are all the mother plants obtained through legal and official channels? In the real world, we all know wild nep population will be slowly but surely getting destroy in the name of human development. It's only up to a few of us to decide how we want to "conserve" the nep species before it's too late... ethically or unethically is up to you.

Perhaps it's a choice between the "lesser of two evils" ??? :unsure:

My 2 tiny cents..... *biggrin2*

Re: Poacher
 

Good answer Robert.

I agree that the situation seem to go in that direction. At the most our efforts might seem to just slow down the process and maybe just save some. But at least we can slow the process and give more time for studies to be done on the plants.

Here's a scenario for all of you to think about... There are species that are still new in cultivation or have not been found yet. Experts like Dr. Charles Clarke and Ch'ien Lee may not have done detailed study on them. If we do not do our part it trying to conserve the plants including their habitat, once they are gone we will never be able to study them in their natural environment and we would have lost valuable information that can only be obtained when the plants were growing in their natural habitat. Even for species that have already been recorded and studies been made, there are still things for us to learn when they grow in different locations and in different habitat. Knowledge is ongoing and nature has alot of secrets that we have yet to discover. Some of these "secrets" cannot be found when the plants are cultivated in a pot.

Can I suggest some things for everyone's consideration:

Showing sensible conservation practices, even if there is not an immediate connection to Nepenthes or carnivorous plants. Develop a conservation ethic regarding recycling, energy use and resource consumption.

Support, volunteer or work for organizations dealing with the conservation of our natural heritage and Nepenthes/carnivorous plants.

Encourage the conservation awareness of other people by getting them excited about their natural heritage.

Do not disclose the exact location to a carnivorous plant habitat to the public. Once the information reaches the wrong hands, that would be the end for the plants in that habitat.

Take note of the following when visiting a Nepenthes or carnivorous plant habitat:

Minimize the damage to the habitat from your passing. Remember that in every habitat, there is a delicate eco-system and any disruption to any components in that eco-system would affect the rest or break the cycle.

Help remove any garbage or items that does not belong to that habitat even if it does not belong to you.

Be sensitive to all life and do not harass any creature there. Vigorously discourage inappropriate activities by others but always remember that you are not the law. Your aim is to just inform and pass on information. Do not pass judgement on others. This is to avoid an unneccesary situation for you and the habitat there.

Re: Poacher
 

it's good that all these issues are raised as they will help to create greater awareness among members.

i agree with what has been said about conservation and responsibility. like many, i too may be tempted to take a cutting or some seeds, with the 'logic' that the plants may all be wiped out the next day.

however, like what cpnut mentioned, we have to exercise some restraint and not contribute towards the plants' extinction with our enthusiasm. our love for CPs should work in their favour and increase their population; not cause further detriment and a dwindling of their numbers.

Re: Poacher
 

SO.....We can take cuttings from the mother plant?

Re: Poacher
 

A question i would like to ask is about the soil in their natural habitat...Not moss just sand clay etc etc...Is that agaisnt the law?? Or maybe not advisable???

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I can agree on plant collection if we see bulldozers on the site devastating its habitat. Solely based on the assumption that the land will be cleared in near future is not.

I believe everyone is clear that plants in national parks and natural reserves are not to be disturbed. The question is on what about those growing among bushes by the roadside or fragmented forests.

We should not encourage anyone taking any parts of plants from the wild, especially the protected species. Let it propagate healthily on its own. Why not let it grow among bushes anywhere the plant can survive? Do you rather like to see wild injured Neps with cuts due to some Neps enthusiasts trying to “help” it propagate? In terms of evolution through natural selection, he is actually discouraging the strong plant individual from growing near human settlements, the exact opposite of “helping”. In other words, encourage extinction.

Modern plant technology such as tissue culture has made almost all plants available to general public. Strong easy to grow clones is available cheap. Exotic species is expensive for a reason. Likely to be difficult to grow and propagate. There is no reason to harvest cheap species from the wild. As of the exotic ones, wild specimen will most likely die in the hands of enthusiast anyway. I don’t see reason of collecting wild plants. Get from reputable nurseries is good.

Based on self judged assumptions that the habitat will be lost soon, someone decides that he should “save” the plants by collecting it now, is rationalization of incorrect act. The love to Neps must not translate to the greed of removing plants from the wild. We should condemn the act of illegal wild plant collection unreservedly.

Re: Poacher
 

Guys, point of view from a neighbor.

In the Philippines, the small group of CP enthusiasts I belong with is currently also considering the future of our hobby. Do we promote CP keeping hobby? Of course we want to promote conservation of CPs in our country too. As I said it is difficult to find a road side in my area with CPs anymore. My point is this. If we promote conservation of Nepenthes, we actually also let a lot of people know that they are out there and available, which might mean higher demand, and maybe higher Poaching demand as well.

As of now, the only way I can get the rarer species into my collection is to import from the likes of BE! yup! Which means not too much poaching... or maybe too difficult to get at already! That is our dilemna here. :(

On the other hand, I was told that when doing road clearing they would clear all plants out of the road side, incuding nepenthes. (in very remote areas where they can still be found) Where is the conservation there?

Here before you can cut any old tree, any! you need a permit from Dept. of Environmental and Natural Resources (DENR), but I don't think they do this for shrubs and vines, like nepenthes.

In closing, if everyone is really out to conserve Nepenthes in our own country, then we can organize as a group and lobby for their protection, and actively at that. I am not going to lie, if I happen to see a site with Nepenthes in my country, I'd probably take a cutting, heck maybe a whole plant (if I think situation warrants it). However if we start lobbying for conservation, that urge should stop with me first. Which means if we are all really out to conserve, then the only thing we as enthusiasts and lobbyists can do is collect seeds (unless they are also banned). If we ask ourselves if we can really stop ourselves from collecting at all no matter what! Then we can start the lobbying and volunteering to really protect the nepenthes species in our country. If we think of excuses on how it is okay to collect, then we should probably not go for all out lobbying yet.

Hope you understand what I mean :)

For me, here in my country, I am not yet optimistic and too enthusiastic about informing the general public, because we do not have alternative sources for Nepenthes yet. Education, information and enforcement must come together or else it will not work.

TTFN
Arvin

Re: Poacher
 

Removing plants, roots and all, can be dangerous as their roots may contain parasites such as nematodes, diseases and other things (insects, fungus and bacteria). The soil in which they grow may also contain eggs and spores of things that could present problems to other plants, (aside from the legal issues already mentioned). Good point that parks and national forest preserves are considered "sacred ground" to me and I leave nothing but foot prints and take nothing but photographs. - Rich

Re: Poacher
 

The task seem uphill and it seems to fall on th fact that we could only slow the down the inevitable... that is the lost of Nepenthes and their habitat in the wild. Perhaps if we could delayed the process we could give enough time for scientists and experts to study the plants and get them into cultivation commercially before we lost them in their natural habitat forever. At least our children's children can read about them and study them through these records, and buy a potted plant fom nurseries. It is not ideal I know.

I met with an organisation involve in the "green" movement of promoting conservation and good conservation practices in Malaysia. Their idea was to share and inform. It seems through this way, people response more positively. They discourage their members from arguing with others who have different ideas or does not support conservation. All they did was just to inform and it worked pretty well for them. Whenever, they organised an event like planting trees, cleaning up the beach, etc. the response is always overwhelming.

Re: Poacher
 

Maybe at the least we can all agree that a protected area is "sacred grounds" I would subscribe to that at the least and really not bother any plant in that location.

May I ask, seed collection is also not allowed in Malaysia?

David, I think that conservation of one particular species is harder to do and educate than say treeplanting activities and beach clean up. That is the problem that we face.

The main concern is:

Would education and information about the plight of the nepenthes in our countries bring about more good in conserving them? Or would it open up to more interest in keeping them and then poaching? I tend to not want to risk it as of now, until at least there is enough supply of commercially grown nepenthes to quench the thirst of would be enthusiasts.

TTFN
Arvin

Re: Poacher
 

I second your proposal.

Ok, I won't give my comment on this but will just quote the law. The law states that "no plant or part of the plant is to be removed without a plant collection permit".

Yes, I agree that it is a difficult decision to make. Actually one member asked me before whether what I am doing with PetPitcher is helping or actually creating more harm. It is the same situation with books, eg. books by Dr. Charles Clarke and Ch'ien Lee. But I think we cannot have one without the other, meaning we cannot promote conservation without also indirectly giving information that poachers would take advantage of.

We should promote nurseries offering artifically propagated plants and offer information on new discoveries and habitat locations to scientists/researchers like Dr. Charles Clarke and Ch'ien Lee so they can reach the plants in time before they are gone.

Re: Poacher
 

now that I feel the law is so funny, as stated "no plant or part of the plant is to be removed without a plant collection permit", but developers "collect" and "kill" on the spot as allowed by our government without those "permit".

As for plant that are in national park, those are almost guarantee to be safe, so no point "helping" them to live, but for reserves forest...in Malaysia, any forest other than national park can be cleared up once something happens under the table, example would be Air Hitam reserves forest in Puchong(quite near to my house), given the name reserves but they are clearing it up, then i went on to serch that spot in google map again, the entire name of Air Hitam reserves forest was gone...I wonder what happen, another would be Tanjong Malim reserves peat swam, they clear up space for road widening project...with all those non-sense from our government, my doubt is which sources can or cannot be trusted...help saving the plant or not is still a confusion, so I'll just take all those advise from senior CPers to leave them alone as long as those places are not in the middle of being clearing up:1thumbup:

Re: Poacher
 

I think in order to raise awareness and to educated the general public, more exposure will be needed, there's no way around it, it's a two edged sword.... :glare:

Any of you ever saw those workers with weed trimmer keeping our roadside and highway looking tidy and clean?? Do you think they care about nepenthes when they're doing their job? Can you blame them? Are they doing something against the law when they cut away those nepenthes??

To them, nepenthes is just weeds that need to be cut to keep things tidy... :crying: If the bush is too thick, they will just light it up and let the fire finish the job... So, are they criminals??

Yes, some neps are quite tough and after being trimmed, cutted and set ablazed... they still come back to live (I'm not making this up, this is from personal site observation). However, for those more fragile neps.... sorrylah... :sweating: The real problem is not so much of how many plants got taken by people but the lost of habitat which I'm very sad to say it's an unstopable force...

As sooxiwei put it elegantly "I feel the law is so funny".... *biggrin2*

In the real word, law was made to be broken, a forest reserve is just a "reserve" for when there's no more jungle to be cut down. I have personally witness so many supposely "Reserved Forest" being clear away in northern Perak namely the Belum Reserved Forest and a few other.... I know because I used to sport fish actively and always travel to those supposely prestine forest.... Sorry for being so negative but I can't help it after witnessing so many "law" being twisted for the benefit of a few without any regards for mother nature.... :thumbdown:

Re: Poacher
 

These heart breaking things are not only occurring in developing countries like Malaysia but right in my own backyard and neighborhood here in North West New Jersey, USA! There was an undeveloped parcel of land near my house with a large and healthy population of several terrestrial orchids, the Pink Lady Slipper (Cyrepidium acaule) and several small "wood orchid" species, (some I have never seen before), among other rare ferns (Botrichium sp), and other things. One day I noticed a small sign by the roadside which said "Oakwood Village coming soon" (which is another McMansion development of large million dollar homes that are built in large numbers and very fast). I went to the local municipality and informed the building inspectors that development on this site could NOT proceed as it is home to several orchid species which is fully protected by strict EPA (Environmental Protection Agency) laws. They said they would "take care of it". Only 10 months later, even when many of these orchids were in full bloom, the site was cleared and these orchids lay crushed in the tracks of heavy trucks and tree removal equipment. I regret to this day not getting the American Orchid Society (AOS) involved with legal action to put a stop to that development. When large sums of money are involved, (closed room dealings and all), rare plant habitat is the LAST thing that people in authority are concerned with. They have bills to pay like everybody else, and if they get the chance to net a windfall of cash just to put a rubber stamp on a piece of paper which would allow a developer to proceed as planned, .... well Planet Reality is what it is.

I had few interesting conversations with Stewart McPherson when he was in town, and he told me that they offered a ride to a local woman walking by the roadside in Sulawesi, and told her of the plants that he was photographing. She told him that she knew of a place nearby where they grew and took them to a farm field where cows were grazing, and this would be routinely burned down when the weeds got too thick. There wasn’t any typical ferns or other companion plants typical for Nepenthes anywhere in sight, and wasn’t even in a mesophytic (wet and swampy) condition. But scattered in the tall grasses were several N. maxima plants! He said that if it weren’t for this woman pointing out these plants, they never would have discovered them. They were hidden in the fields, and may have gone on for decades without being noticed. Some of these plants can survive mild fires, but nothing can survive bulldozers and massive clearing due to development.

I remember when a N. burbidgea and N. rajah site in Sabah was bulldozed into oblivion to make way for a luxury resort and golf course. The site was officially off limits and private property but a few local people risked getting arrested for trespassing and managed to rescue some seed of these plants and got them to reputable TC growers and others. - Rich

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Reserves are just......protected sometime then when the government think there is no place to use anymore then they use thos reserves?Kinda like a back-up place for me.....

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I think that even though it seems that sometimes higher powers are at work against conservation and it would be like "a dog barking to move a mountain", I am glad that every now and then these threads and discussion on this topic comes up on the forum.

I think it is good as it reminds us of the issues that faces our "best friend"... our beloved Nepenthes and we should just all do our part, no matter how small and ineffective we think it may be. Just be persistent and consistent.

We may not have the power to change the world, but we certainly have the power to change ourselves. As arvin explained, it has to start from us.

Re: Poacher
 

David,
Do you feel this is a "sticky" worthy thread??

Re: Poacher
 

I agree Dave that it has to start with us. Rich's actions with the Orchids is however a next step, but as he said on hind sight, Amerian Orchid Soceity might have been more effective if they were behind him.

You guys remember the "Pelican Brief"? I am sure there are other incidents like this as well. However if we are realistic we know that plants will not be prioritized versus "the greater good" of say a new highway.

I'm not a lawyer, but if you think of it logically "no plant or part of the plant is to be removed without a plant collection permit" only pertains to collection, the road clearer or the bulldozers were not collecting, they were clearing them. :( As mentioned here in my country, you need a permit to cut down a tree, even if it's in your own land! Crazy aint it? But then if you are an eco warrior, it works... then again it does not work on nepenthes and of course government road works and stuff. Plus the mentioned back room discussions, in most cases blanket permit to clear trees and forest for some kind of project.

I guess at the end of the day, a realistic target is to get ourselves organized, maybe Affiliate with a bigger similar club or Non Government Organization that is out to conserve. Is there a big plant or eco conservation organization in Malaysia? And maybe get a senator or whathave you to back up the effort.

The best that we an hope for, for now, is if there is a road work going on that will hit vital Nepenthes sites that we know, that either they maybe consider diverting a bit to spare that site. Or at least allow volunteers to work with the workers to collect plants and transplant them to the nearest location. (usually the cost should be fully or partially sponsored by the company or government that is doing this project in the first place). The decision or study if it is vaiable to transplant or that it is necessary to divert the project has to be in coordination with botanist expert.... Oh the beaurocracy.

I also "hope and dream" that in the future if there are resorts being build, that the organization can approach the owner, explain the situation and heck use nepenthes as a feature or a centerpiece of their project. Golf courses with nepenthes in the scenery for example! Cool eh? Heck if I had enough local neps, I'd really start talking to a golf course club that I am a member of that is just right for such a project. But the key is to talk to them before the project begins.

End of my rantings :)
TTFN
Arvin

Re: Poacher
 

Hi Arvin,
Good point, my intention is not to blame who's at fault but to point out that the law to protect the supposely "protected" species is grossly in adequate to do what's it's supposely intended to accomplish.

FYI, there's already such NGO in Malaysia that known as Malaysian Nature Society. Check it out... :1thumbup:

Re: Poacher
 

cpnut, yes that is the one to go with if ever. They have one project already on going against a pipeline project. If the petpitcher group is part of this organization or at least one or two members are members, then you can put forward your concerns with Nepenthes through this organization which has a bigger voice.

In my opinion however, it is best when both parties find a mutually beneficial solution to a problem, rather than hard standing. For example if that pipeline crossed an important nepenthes habitat, of course the first stand is to be a "hard stand", NO! But then one can also find a middle ground and say, okay, show us where you will construct, and then leave the rest of the parts to be protected, and help with the relocation of any plants that will be affected by the construction. Something to that effect.

Of course this time I am talking like an idealist :)

Yes I agree, the law seemed to have been written against poachers and collectors only, but construction and destruction of the habitat by projects is not really indicated and protected from.

TTFN
Arvin

Re: Poacher
 

Okay,I totally agree with you here!:smile:

Re: Poacher
 

This thread is interesting. This does not directly concern poaching but international trade of threatened species. I find the laws regarding saving those threatened species from habitat destruction instead of letting them being bulldozed over rather unreasonable. Apparently, some laws (such as CITES laws) designed to protect threatened species is not fool-proof because it was originally intended to protect animals, and not plants. Obviously there is a big difference between the reproductive ability of rare mammals (rhinos, orang utans etc) which bear only a few live young a year and plants, which can produce thousands of seeds from a mature plant. Hence, collecting (I mean saving) 1 plant from the wild before it is flattened by a bulldozer and propagating the seeds contributes significantly to the survival of that species.. Just my 2 sen.. :)

Re: Poacher
 

CITES is set up to govern the international trade of endangered species between countries or continents. The laws protecting plants/animals from being poached within a country is the responsibility of the individual government and people in that country. Therefore, it is not a question of the design of CITES laws that is inadequate to protect plants as CITES only governs movement of endangered species between countries.

The reasons why some say that CITES is ineffective is because of the massive coverage of its work worldwide and the fact that in each geographical location or country, the objectives and enforcement is depended on the enforcement agencies in that country. There is no way to monitor closely the enforcement in each of the 170 over countries under the CITES agreement. Their objecives and work are good and I think CITES has help a great deal in conservation todate. I believe if not for CITES, more species would have been extinct.

Re: Poacher
 

I agree with BL. If everyone use this excuse and cut a big bag... what will happen? Dont forget that in this big bag, how many of them will die during the transition period before plants are being given to the respective person.

Hate those who like to sapu and even worst if they make $$$ out from it...
low life.

Kudos to BL who is so alert and quick in action to take a picture of his car.

Re: Poacher
 

Want to add another point.
The joy for us to see Neps and any plants in-situ is way beyond what i can describe to you now.
We can not stopped development from destroying natural sites but at least we can stop ourselves and our friends from simply cutting a big bag on any given day....

This is a way we could "give" back something to our mother nature.

Re: Poacher
 

The person in the picture of the first post taken by boonleng has spoken to me. He could not reply to these allegations against him as he could not write in English very well and is not familiar with the forum. He speaks mainly Chinese dialects. He has only recently found out about this thread.

He told me he did not take any plants from that site, only pitchers as he wanted to preserve them. He appreciates boonleng's concerns for the plants and said that if he was asked to show what he had in the plastic bag, he would gladly show it to prove that it is not plants in there, but just the pitchers of the Nepenthes plant.

I have removed the picture of his car in the first post.

Re: Poacher
 

Oh sorry for doubting you.....

Re: Poaching
 

Wow David you tracked down the person? cool!!

In defense to Boonleng I wouldn't go up to a guy who I think is poaching and ask to see what he has inside the bag.

Then again, may I quote what you quoted David in a post:

"Ok, I won't give my comment on this but will just quote the law. The law states that "no plant or part of the plant is to be removed without a plant collection permit"."

Pitchers are part of the plant :(

However for us at least, the plant should live on and make new pitchers so it is not as bad as uprooting the plant or doing lots of cuttings.

I wonder how he preserves them.

TTFN
Arvin