Re: Poacher
 

I have mixed feelings about this as well. So often massive clearing and habitat destruction goes on without any warning or public notice, one day it's pristine habitat, the next time it may be fenced off, leveled, burned down, bulldozed and plowed into the ground and all. Grabbing a few cuttings shouldn't hurt the population, but I do hope he left the roots and primary growing stocks alone. Getting proper permissions is often next to impossible, especially if a big corporation owns the land. I know, and I've tried, even here in NJ, USA! In a perfect world, .... but we happen to live in "Planet Reality", with politics, business, greed and all. - Rich

Re: Poacher
 

Ok, let me just pen out the situation in Malaysia. This is only my observation and everyone is free to have their own ideas and make their own decision on how they will act.

I understand the arguments on poaching and how on one hand the government have laws to protect these plants, but on another allows the land to be destroyed in the name of development. Like what rsivertsen said... we live in the real world. This fact is very real in Malaysia. However, eventhough I am upset about the situation, we must also consider the size of our country. Malaysia is not big if we compare with countries such as Australia or USA. The population is growing and the governement is also presured to build more infrastructure and develope the land to accomodate the population. Where would the population go if it keeps increasing and no new houses are built? Where can we draw the line betwen man and plant? It is also a fact that some species are only endemic to Malaysia. Can we say because our land is limited, we have the right to destroy them? On the other hand, can we say plants are more improtant than people, or shoudl we relocate people for the sake of plants? The line is very blurr and is difficult to draw.

Yes, it can be argued that the habitat may be destroyed for development. Therefore, logically we should take the plants in order to save them. But can we confirm (eg. the location in this thread) that it will be destroyed? I would agree and remove the plants too if I know the land is going to be develope. But I think in alot of instances we do not know.

Also, we need to be careful and be informed about the laws in Malaysia. Just in case members do not know, Malaysian laws are very strict on poaching (especially endangered plants) or taking of any plant material or plant part from the wild. Read here if you are interested to know. You can be liable up to RM50,000 and imprisoned for up to 5 years. However, at the moment enforcement is still very relaxed and enforcement officers are concentrating their efforts at entry/exit points in the country. But, there is no garantee that they will not step up their efforts. If you are trying to poach Nepenthes from Cameron Highlands, be warned. In the past few years NGOs have been working with the forestry department to look out for poachers of orchids and... yes... Nepenthes as well. Already, a few enthusiasts and nursery owners have be caught.

To us, we might feel it is right to take the plants becasue the land will be developed, but the law says otherwise. It would seem unfair in a situation like this if we are caught and have to face the wrath of the law... but is it? Perhaps there are other venues or we should look for the right channel/way to forward our concerns to the right people.

My next point is a question of your conscience. Eventhough there is lack of enforcement, do you feel comfortable breaking the law in your country? If you do, by all means. I am not here to judge or tell you what to do as I am guilty of breaking some minor laws in my life as well. Who doesn't?

Nepenthes usually grows in disturbed areas where the forest have been cleared. This also brings up a question in my mind. Does developement help create habitats for Neps? In Borneo, forest are burnt by the indegenous people of the land for growing crops on a regular basis. It is for the survival of their people. This process helps create open site for Nepenthes to thrive. The plants are burnt and new seedlings take over the landscape or they grow back from their roots.

Talking about growing crops, pollution from farming and agriculture activities using artificial fertilisers and pesticides poisons the soil or water too and this inhibit/kills the plants. Again, can we stop farming and agriculture? where do we draw the line again or how do we fix this problem?

At the moment there are still alot of Malaysians who do not know about Neps or do not have an interest in growing these plants, but the numbers are increasing thanks to all of you (It's a good thing! :) ). But, if every enthusiasts decides to collect Neps from their habitat or roadside when they sees them, what will happen to the habitat and number of plants in the wild? Imagine if the interest in Neps is similar to that of orchid enthusiasts in Malaysia. Add that to development and poaching from unscrupulous nursery owners and guess what will happen?

I am not saying a particular way is right or wrong as there are many angles to this argument. To be honest I am not sure what stand to take sometimes but I think each of us should try our best in each situation and I think we can help slow down the process of the plants dissapearing in the wild. We have to decide in each given situation and sometimes, in the eyes of others, what we decide can be seen as right or wrong. But if our conscience is clear, go for it. I believe a true Nepenthes enthusiasts would want to do what is right for their beloved plants eventhough sometimes that judgement can be clouded by their desire and the excitement of poaching the plant.

I think In Malaysia, there is a lack of information and awareness. If the government and people are more aware and informed about these plants, I believe some decisions that they make will be different, and I think that will help somewhat in preserving the plants. That is why one of my purpose for this forum is to inform and create awareness. All of you here are part of this good work in creating awareness and giving out information. I have checked out some related Malaysain Government agencies' website in the past and none of them have inforamtion on these plants. It was only very recently that I noticed some information on the sites. Perhaps the government is also getting more aware and we should rejoice that there is a glimmer of hope.

Re: Poacher
 

Good article, David.

Here's my opinion regarding this issue. Referring to BE's motto "Conservation Through Cultivation", this seems to be the future for nepenthes in many part of the world. Does that mean anyone should be encourage and take it upon him/herself to go collect wild neps as much as possible?

There's a very fine line between "Conservation" and "Poarching". If one collect cuttings or seeds (limited cuttings or seeds collection) and spread it among cultivation (by that I mean FOC) in order to preserve a certain species endemic in a place where development is unavoidable, then I feel it's our responsibility (however legal issue is another story).

What I worried the most, are those acted in the name of "conservation" but on the other hand collect wild neps in large quantities with "leave no behind" attitude to plunder the wild neps population for personal gain be it to sell or for trade. This action in the long run, will do more harm than good.

There's right or wrong but there's always a "grey" area.... I would like to know how famous nurseries obtained their various species of nepenthes in the first place(not to accuse them but just to make a point), are all the mother plants obtained through legal and official channels? In the real world, we all know wild nep population will be slowly but surely getting destroy in the name of human development. It's only up to a few of us to decide how we want to "conserve" the nep species before it's too late... ethically or unethically is up to you.

Perhaps it's a choice between the "lesser of two evils" ??? :unsure:

My 2 tiny cents..... *biggrin2*

Re: Poacher
 

Good answer Robert.

I agree that the situation seem to go in that direction. At the most our efforts might seem to just slow down the process and maybe just save some. But at least we can slow the process and give more time for studies to be done on the plants.

Here's a scenario for all of you to think about... There are species that are still new in cultivation or have not been found yet. Experts like Dr. Charles Clarke and Ch'ien Lee may not have done detailed study on them. If we do not do our part it trying to conserve the plants including their habitat, once they are gone we will never be able to study them in their natural environment and we would have lost valuable information that can only be obtained when the plants were growing in their natural habitat. Even for species that have already been recorded and studies been made, there are still things for us to learn when they grow in different locations and in different habitat. Knowledge is ongoing and nature has alot of secrets that we have yet to discover. Some of these "secrets" cannot be found when the plants are cultivated in a pot.

Can I suggest some things for everyone's consideration:

Showing sensible conservation practices, even if there is not an immediate connection to Nepenthes or carnivorous plants. Develop a conservation ethic regarding recycling, energy use and resource consumption.

Support, volunteer or work for organizations dealing with the conservation of our natural heritage and Nepenthes/carnivorous plants.

Encourage the conservation awareness of other people by getting them excited about their natural heritage.

Do not disclose the exact location to a carnivorous plant habitat to the public. Once the information reaches the wrong hands, that would be the end for the plants in that habitat.

Take note of the following when visiting a Nepenthes or carnivorous plant habitat:

Minimize the damage to the habitat from your passing. Remember that in every habitat, there is a delicate eco-system and any disruption to any components in that eco-system would affect the rest or break the cycle.

Help remove any garbage or items that does not belong to that habitat even if it does not belong to you.

Be sensitive to all life and do not harass any creature there. Vigorously discourage inappropriate activities by others but always remember that you are not the law. Your aim is to just inform and pass on information. Do not pass judgement on others. This is to avoid an unneccesary situation for you and the habitat there.

Re: Poacher
 

it's good that all these issues are raised as they will help to create greater awareness among members.

i agree with what has been said about conservation and responsibility. like many, i too may be tempted to take a cutting or some seeds, with the 'logic' that the plants may all be wiped out the next day.

however, like what cpnut mentioned, we have to exercise some restraint and not contribute towards the plants' extinction with our enthusiasm. our love for CPs should work in their favour and increase their population; not cause further detriment and a dwindling of their numbers.

Re: Poacher
 

SO.....We can take cuttings from the mother plant?

Re: Poacher
 

A question i would like to ask is about the soil in their natural habitat...Not moss just sand clay etc etc...Is that agaisnt the law?? Or maybe not advisable???

Re: Poacher
 

I can agree on plant collection if we see bulldozers on the site devastating its habitat. Solely based on the assumption that the land will be cleared in near future is not.

I believe everyone is clear that plants in national parks and natural reserves are not to be disturbed. The question is on what about those growing among bushes by the roadside or fragmented forests.

We should not encourage anyone taking any parts of plants from the wild, especially the protected species. Let it propagate healthily on its own. Why not let it grow among bushes anywhere the plant can survive? Do you rather like to see wild injured Neps with cuts due to some Neps enthusiasts trying to “help” it propagate? In terms of evolution through natural selection, he is actually discouraging the strong plant individual from growing near human settlements, the exact opposite of “helping”. In other words, encourage extinction.

Modern plant technology such as tissue culture has made almost all plants available to general public. Strong easy to grow clones is available cheap. Exotic species is expensive for a reason. Likely to be difficult to grow and propagate. There is no reason to harvest cheap species from the wild. As of the exotic ones, wild specimen will most likely die in the hands of enthusiast anyway. I don’t see reason of collecting wild plants. Get from reputable nurseries is good.

Based on self judged assumptions that the habitat will be lost soon, someone decides that he should “save” the plants by collecting it now, is rationalization of incorrect act. The love to Neps must not translate to the greed of removing plants from the wild. We should condemn the act of illegal wild plant collection unreservedly.

Re: Poacher
 

Guys, point of view from a neighbor.

In the Philippines, the small group of CP enthusiasts I belong with is currently also considering the future of our hobby. Do we promote CP keeping hobby? Of course we want to promote conservation of CPs in our country too. As I said it is difficult to find a road side in my area with CPs anymore. My point is this. If we promote conservation of Nepenthes, we actually also let a lot of people know that they are out there and available, which might mean higher demand, and maybe higher Poaching demand as well.

As of now, the only way I can get the rarer species into my collection is to import from the likes of BE! yup! Which means not too much poaching... or maybe too difficult to get at already! That is our dilemna here. :(

On the other hand, I was told that when doing road clearing they would clear all plants out of the road side, incuding nepenthes. (in very remote areas where they can still be found) Where is the conservation there?

Here before you can cut any old tree, any! you need a permit from Dept. of Environmental and Natural Resources (DENR), but I don't think they do this for shrubs and vines, like nepenthes.

In closing, if everyone is really out to conserve Nepenthes in our own country, then we can organize as a group and lobby for their protection, and actively at that. I am not going to lie, if I happen to see a site with Nepenthes in my country, I'd probably take a cutting, heck maybe a whole plant (if I think situation warrants it). However if we start lobbying for conservation, that urge should stop with me first. Which means if we are all really out to conserve, then the only thing we as enthusiasts and lobbyists can do is collect seeds (unless they are also banned). If we ask ourselves if we can really stop ourselves from collecting at all no matter what! Then we can start the lobbying and volunteering to really protect the nepenthes species in our country. If we think of excuses on how it is okay to collect, then we should probably not go for all out lobbying yet.

Hope you understand what I mean :)

For me, here in my country, I am not yet optimistic and too enthusiastic about informing the general public, because we do not have alternative sources for Nepenthes yet. Education, information and enforcement must come together or else it will not work.

TTFN
Arvin

Re: Poacher
 

Removing plants, roots and all, can be dangerous as their roots may contain parasites such as nematodes, diseases and other things (insects, fungus and bacteria). The soil in which they grow may also contain eggs and spores of things that could present problems to other plants, (aside from the legal issues already mentioned). Good point that parks and national forest preserves are considered "sacred ground" to me and I leave nothing but foot prints and take nothing but photographs. - Rich