rainforestguy: Seed-Grown N. sanguinea grows well in tropics

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Seed-Grown N. sanguinea grows well in tropics
« Thread Started on Jan 12, 2008, 11:40pm »
I have read numerous times how N. sanguinea is difficult to grow in warmer climates. Here is an example of a seed grown sanguinea and it just grows and grows, very wild. While this is my best clone, I have others that also grow well but not as rampant as this particular clone.

This is a dark form of the species (showing uppers).

This image is reduced by 30%, click it to view full size.


M

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Re: Seed-Grown N. sanguinea grows well in tropics
« Reply #1 on Jan 13, 2008, 12:45am »

hey a very healthy N.Sanguinea you have there... worth all your afford growing them from seeds...


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Re: Seed-Grown N. sanguinea grows well in tropics
« Reply #2 on Jan 14, 2008, 8:56am »
That pitcher is quite big even when you grow it under lowland conditions. How did you grow it that big? I have a sanguinea that is also from seed. The picthers are only the size of gracilis pitchers. The leaves were only half the size of your sanguinea leaves.

Do you think the amount of sunlight affects the size of the pitchers/plant? « Last Edit: Jan 14, 2008, 8:57am by David »Link to Post - Back to Top LoggedMy Wantlist rainforestguy
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Re: Seed-Grown N. sanguinea grows well in tropics
« Reply #3 on Jan 15, 2008, 12:12am »
This plant is in very bright light. I believe most of the sanguineas found in habitat are growing best in full sunlight. I have a few plants growing in the shade and while their coloration more striking, they don't seem as large and leathery as the sun-grown plants.
I lost almost all of my tc plants and the remainder, I have sent away to people who can afford them exacting growing conditions that will suit these. But interestingly, their tc plants don't seem to have that vigor these seed grown plants do. I am still awaiting the flowering of this and others, until then, I just keep them going and vining.

M
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Re: Seed-Grown N. sanguinea grows well in tropics
« Reply #4 on Jan 18, 2008, 4:44am »

Hi Michael:

Nice sanguinea indeed. I just wanted to ask you whether the other sanguineas seedlings are doing well. I mean the other sanguineas plants grown by compost or you just have one plant?. I hope you are not selectively picking up clones .
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Re: Seed-Grown N. sanguinea grows well in tropics
« Reply #5 on Jan 18, 2008, 5:22am »
The sanguineas I have germinated and grown number about twenty plants. While some are still smallish seedling-like, others have vigorously claimed their territory and are growing like an alata (ten feet vines). These sort of traits are difficult to see in a flask and while tc clones might be useful if not only to own that particular species, it doesn't have any purpose if you an't grow it.
If my experiences of growing N. sanguinea was just based on seed original plants, I would say it is a weedy species. But since I grew tc plants as well, this is not the case. Interesting that N. sanguinea also grows with ramispina and macfarlanei, I wonder if I grew seeds of these, would I expect to see results like my sanguinea? But we can never test this since we ONLY have tc origin plants available to us.

Michael
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Re: Seed-Grown N. sanguinea grows well in tropics
« Reply #6 on Jan 18, 2008, 8:52am »

Well, Michael: At least you agree that clone selection is necessary to have nice plants around.
Whether this from compost or TC and that's good.

Gus
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Re: Seed-Grown N. sanguinea grows well in tropics
« Reply #7 on Jan 18, 2008, 9:17am »
Clone selection from plants that have adapted directly from growing in the "dirt" and NOT under perfect, sterile, aseptic, UNnatural, artificially created environments that have allowed everything to become grown to perfection whether they can or cannot.
I would not propagate from these weaker smaller clones, just the vigorous clones that have adapted.
N. sanguinea tc clones 0
N. sanguinea seed grown originals 20

What tc clones do you know of that are worthy for propagation?

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Re: Seed-Grown N. sanguinea grows well in tropics
« Reply #8 on Jan 18, 2008, 5:51pm »


Hi Michael: mira clones, ephippiata clones, hamata clones, etc.

Gus
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Re: Seed-Grown N. sanguinea grows well in tropics
« Reply #9 on Jan 19, 2008, 12:25am »
But these clones represent a specific type for a specific exacting climate. You can't grow them unless their conditions are uniform to a specific narrow parameter. The whole point for this topic is to show species variance for climate through seedling selection and adaptation. TC clones of N. hamata, mira, and ephippiata are clearly poor candidates for this.
A good example is N. rafflesiana, texts say that they are found higher in elevation, yet no one has brought to the fore, a form that is from higher elevations. This would yield plants that would grow well for cooler growers. yet all of the tc clones of this species are warmth required clones. Perhaps there is a mechanism for this species to grow cooler if given the chance, through seed adaption and conditioning.

M

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Re: Seed-Grown N. sanguinea grows well in tropics
« Reply #10 on Jan 19, 2008, 3:33am »
Where's my tentaculata from 700m???
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Re: Seed-Grown N. sanguinea grows well in tropics
« Reply #11 on Jan 19, 2008, 5:22am »

Quote:.
A good example is N. rafflesiana, texts say that they are found higher in elevation, yet no one has brought to the fore, a form that is from higher elevations. This would yield plants that would grow well for cooler growers. yet all of the tc clones of this species are warmth required clones. Perhaps there is a mechanism for this species to grow cooler if given the chance, through seed adaption and conditioning.

M


Hi Michael. That's a very interesting point, again, thanks for agreeing with me on that. I have been saying that for the past two years already, but it always falls to deaf ears!.
I know that there is an aristolochioides found at lower altitudes in cultivation!. Let's hope it helps. I think there is so much to do on this area that it'll take at least another 5 years to sort them out.

Gus
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Re: Seed-Grown N. sanguinea grows well in tropics
« Reply #12 on Jan 19, 2008, 2:15pm »
Excellent! Good to know there's a temperature tolerant clone of N. sanguinea out there which was raised on now not-so-lethal coco-fibre.

Now the next step would be to put it into TC so it can be enjoyed by thousands.

Good job! Keep up the good work
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Re: Seed-Grown N. sanguinea grows well in tropics
« Reply #13 on Jan 20, 2008, 5:05am »
Why would you need to put it into tc if seed grown clones of the same could be produced by the thousands as well. Here's a new idea, multiple clones of a species all unrelated.

Imagine that!


Quote:Good job! Keep up the good work
This field has changed a lot since I entered my thoughts on a "new" way of growing nepenthes. While so many dinosaurs want to keep you UNenlightened, I will continue to share insights and new theories, especially when their results are profound and stimulating.

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Re: Seed-Grown N. sanguinea grows well in tropics
« Reply #14 on Jan 20, 2008, 10:13am »

Quote:I think there is so much to do on this area that it'll take at least another 5 years to sort them out.
Five years is a long time in the cultivation of nepenthes. I would like to see more seed-raised plants over tc clones of anything. It is only through propagation from seed on seed originals can true individuals of temperature tolerant forms can be found. And while tc clones of tolerant forms would be beneficial, seed-originals from forms tolerant can yield same results at a substantial savings! Imagine the cost of N. lowii x macrophylla (N. Trusmadiensis) from seeds versus N. Trusmadiensis tc clone of the same? Wouldn't seed produced N. TM be cheaper over tc?
Since it is a known fact that tc clones are pricier over seed grown material, wouldn't it be more economical to produce seed originals? Therefore it isn't necessary to get something into tc if the same result of obtaining a plant be also achieved from seed original plants.

M
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Re: Seed-Grown N. sanguinea grows well in tropics
« Reply #15 on Jan 20, 2008, 12:54pm »
Michael,
I have never seen a tc clone pricier than it's seed-grown counterpart.
Where are you finding all these cheap seed produced plants?
I am dying to know!

Cheers,

Joe
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Re: Seed-Grown N. sanguinea grows well in tropics
« Reply #16 on Jan 20, 2008, 5:09pm »

Quote:Since it is a known fact that tc clones are pricier over seed grown material, wouldn't it be more economical to produce seed originals?

It's a known fact is it? Is that so? I learn something new every day. Seems I (and many others) have been wasting our time for decades sowing seeds in-vitro as well as in nurseries. When the nursery grown plants are exhausted and the TC clones come through, I reduce the price by 1/3 and then the price continues to drop as the benefits of the economies of scale available with in-vitro plants becomes avaible. Silly me!

Seems I've got it all wrong if it's cheaper to obtain and raise seeds of rare species in the traditional way. I don't know why anyone bothers with TC at all. Someone should tell the Dutch and organisations like Agristarts theat they've got it all wrong!

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Re: Seed-Grown N. sanguinea grows well in tropics
« Reply #17 on Jan 20, 2008, 9:26pm »
Aiyah Rob, anyone can make mistake. Now that you know, why don't you produce some cheep cheep seed plants for the mass market.

Choong
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Re: Seed-Grown N. sanguinea grows well in tropics
« Reply #18 on Jan 21, 2008, 3:17am »
Why does everybody say that when the nursery grown clones become exhausted? If you are constantly making newer seeds from stock plants from superior clones then each succeeding generation of that species becomes better. An example is N. truncata. EP has clones that are only getting better, yet their price for seedlings still come under the price of a tc clone. Its better than propagating the rubbish that litters over and over again. Useless replicas of plants of poor quality and breeding abilities.
A seed original makes more sense to perpetuate a species rather than a population of all males of the same form or even one type one clone. The single clone of N. boschiana of two types is another example of wasted gene pool. Species tend to variate in nature. Why are we limiting this in just making tc clones of one form?
Anyone who has grown from seed clearly knows a big difference between a seed original and a tc clone. N. sanguinea is an example of such a difference.

M
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Re: Seed-Grown N. sanguinea grows well in tropics
« Reply #19 on Jan 21, 2008, 12:30pm »
As much as I have a love affair with seed...
FWIW, I know of a few different boschiana clones. BE supplied at least 2 different clones to Paroubek a few years ago. A friend of mine in town here actually ordered two plants from Paroubek and told him to pick out the 2 most distinct looking individuals. It turned out 1 was male and one was female. I know of one place currently supplying BE-3039, but I have no idea if that is the same clone as what Paroubek had many years ago, I would assume so, since the ones in the possession of my friend are now quite large, and so are the 3039's being offered for sale currently, but I could be wrong.
MT has a boschiana clone. However, I don't know the gender.
Wistuba, many years ago, offered only cuttings from a single plant, which was potentially wild collected, as he only had one, and it was too new of an introduction to have been started from seed in TC 5 years plus prior to the offering. These cuttings are female. I think at some later point, Wistuba then sold a clone or two of boschiana. Of course, I could be completely and totally wrong about that, as I don't memorize his (or anyone else's) catalog.

Regardless, there are at least 4 clones of boschiana circulating to my knowledge.

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