rainforestguy: seed vs tc plants

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rainforestguy
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seed vs tc plants
« Thread Started on Feb 8, 2008, 5:05pm »
I get a lot of pm from nepenthes collectors every single day that ask me about tc and seed grown material. Many have already told me that they are finally seeing what my rants and raves are all about. Not only some defects that have been repeatedly seen on occasion but from different growers in different regions experiencing similar characteristics.
Other issues that have arisen from these talks is how some nurseries are selling tc clones randomly. I've been asked why do they sell "random" clones when the idea behind tc is to sell a "selected" form of a species, why keep its identity a secret? Some even go so far as saying that there isn't any difference among them. And perhaps could they be ALL the same single clone? I do know how I would react. IF there were three clones of a species (i.e. clone A, clone B, and clone C) wouldn't you buy one of each? I guess what I am implying is are they all DIFFERENT individual clones? I do know that if they were seed grown originals, I would definitely buy as many as I could afford, wouldn't you?
And why do they always compare tc clones to seedlings especially when they themselves feel it is a "superior" product over a seed original. The current N. platychila controversy is all about the origin of platychila. So are the "superior" tc clones of platychila true or hybrid?
Any way for those who have pm'd me, this is the average thought process of the lines of your inquries you may want to seek.
Cheerio!
Michael
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Re: seed vs tc plants
« Reply #1 on Feb 8, 2008, 5:47pm »
Dear Michael:

First of all, i refuse to get into an argument with you or anyone else. I also believe that you should respect the different opinions no matter how foreign or inconceivable they may seem to you as i respect yours.

Now going back to the original question. Up until a couple of years ago, many people who do TC work, with few exceptions, did not care to isolate clones from a TC flasks as perhaps they thought it was a waste of time. Therefore, clones being around about 7-10 years ago, may not have been selected and they may still be mixed with other clones regardless the species. Now that there is a trend where people see differences in TC clones like clipeata clones 1, 2 and U which seems to be the easiest to grow, I am sure some nurseries are being more discriminating in selecting clones and are now looking for attractive features including robustness and ease to grow them under most environmental conditions. It will take some time, before all these issues are sorted out and as more species are discovered and put into TC, there will be a streamlined process to select the best clones from any batch of seed. Whether these are of inferior quality than compost grown clones is a matter of a different post.

Regarding the issue with platychilas, that's a different matter altogether. We have two different schools of thought on platychilas. Those who believe speciation is absolute and characteristics within a species must be uniform without exception and those who believe that even though, a species has a definite set of characteristics, there is still a chance of finding genetic traits of a neighbouring species which somehow has lost ground in a constant battle for dominance in a particular geographical area.

What factors make Nepenthes compete for a habitat in a particular area? Who Knows!, but one thing is clear either all competing species find a balance amongst themselves to avoid taking over each other's territory or the most successful species outcompete the others or a former hybrid between 2 or 3 species becomes dominant and eradicates the rest in a relatively short period of time (IN PLANT YEARS THAT IS). What predicts a particular trend, again who knows, but it has a lot to do with the number of species present in a particular area. for example: villosa may have it easy having to deal with only edwardsiana or rajah, but others like rafflesiana may have to take on ampullarias, mirabilis, or perhaps even reinwardtianas.

I hope i have not confused you all. Should anybody have a question, please feel free to ask.

Thanks

Gus « Last Edit: Feb 8, 2008, 5:51pm by agustinfranco »Link to Post - Back to Top Logged rainforestguy
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Re: seed vs tc plants
« Reply #2 on Feb 9, 2008, 2:41am »

Quote:Those who believe speciation is absolute and characteristics within a species must be uniform without exception and those who believe that even though, a species has a definite set of characteristics, there is still a chance of finding genetic traits of a neighbouring species which somehow has lost ground in a constant battle for dominance in a particular geographical area.

Interesting!
I do not know a single person who would be on the other branch of thought regarding owning a "species" which is hybrid in ancestral heritage. If I had a tc clone of a "hybrid" platychila, it would be unethical (to me) to call this platychila. The example of your definition of a species would not satisfy a person who wants a species.

Random clones could never make sense since each entity is male or female. And yes, those clones that are 7-10 years old are still a mystery for sex, true species and conformity. Oddly they still propagate them randomly.

If I were selling tc clones of twenty different individuals and actually just producing one clone for sale, isn't that somewhat unethical? But how would we know? Its like there's no ID or clone number attached to any of them.

M
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Re: seed vs tc plants
« Reply #3 on Feb 9, 2008, 5:49am »

Hi Michael: I thought that it's been recognized by many experts the fact that many species come from hybridogenomic origin. Otherwise, how would you explain the emergence of species like hurrelliana, murudiensis, the sanguinea-macfarlanei-ramispina complex or the maxima complex and the many species where reniwardtiana is suspected or the tobaica etc. etc. etc.

We can't get species from heaven Michael, they are made on earth. N. XKinabaluensis for example, it may be upgraded to species as it's being self propagating for 100 years or so according to the authorities on Mount Kinabalu.

Gus
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Re: seed vs tc plants
« Reply #4 on Feb 9, 2008, 6:03am »
[quote author=rainforestguy board=general thread=1202461516 post=1202496102

Random clones could never make sense since each entity is male or female. And yes, those clones that are 7-10 years old are still a mystery for sex, true species and conformity. Oddly they still propagate them randomly.

If I were selling tc clones of twenty different individuals and actually just producing one clone for sale, isn't that somewhat unethical? But how would we know? Its like there's no ID or clone number attached to any of them.

M[/quote]

Originally, seeds have evolved to grow on soil and not TC media. Human technological intervention; however, has made possible the propagation of these in a controlled environment with the ability to correct and rectify errors like picking up clones for desirable characteristics and ability to grow faster. Now what i am no aware of is whether in compost grown seeds one can actually do the same. It's being recognized also that some clones from TC may be weak, but afaik, they are eradicated. In compost only those clones germinated successfully from seed grow. Selection is done by natural conditions, but the amount of seed that produce healthy individuals is almost always a limiting factor and if you happen to like a particular clone, one must wait 4-5 yeas later for a CUTTING!.

It would be highly unethical when any nursery having for example
40 clones only sell 2 because they are the faster growers, when there may be another 10-15 fast growers, but if the same lab has only one clone of tenuis for example, and it's a pain in the #^%$
to grow it. Should it refrain from selling it, even if it takes 7 years to grow it on TC or it should look to find seed again (Legal or illegal, which is a different issue altogether) until they get more clones in TC?

you decide.

Gus

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Re: seed vs tc plants
« Reply #5 on Feb 9, 2008, 7:29am »
whether we're talking about a single clone or multiple clones, the process for in vitro AND compost begins the same. The acquisition of seeds sown. If a single clone is to be propagated, then we all know its all the same. But what about ten clones germinated in vitro. Do we all know that all ten clones are propagated at all times? Methodology of growing, cutting and propagating are done for each individual plant-seedling-original It would be retarded to make multiple cuttings of the of a general batch of germinated seed in the same flask. If this is the method of doing this, then we would never know if any of the other seed originals ever made it up to bat as a unique individual.

It is a huge responsibility for any grower even in tc plants to be aware of what clone one is selling at all times. If you're just propagating a couple of faster growers and say that ten were germinated, then isn't this false information? How can we prove that these are truly unrelated individuals.

M
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Re: seed vs tc plants
« Reply #6 on Feb 9, 2008, 9:12am »

Quote:whether we're talking about a single clone or multiple clones, the process for in vitro AND compost begins the same. The acquisition of seeds sown. If a single clone is to be propagated, then we all know its all the same. But what about ten clones germinated in vitro. Do we all know that all ten clones are propagated at all times? Methodology of growing, cutting and propagating are done for each individual plant-seedling-original It would be retarded to make multiple cuttings of the of a general batch of germinated seed in the same flask. If this is the method of doing this, then we would never know if any of the other seed originals ever made it up to bat as a unique individual.

It is a huge responsibility for any grower even in tc plants to be aware of what clone one is selling at all times. If you're just propagating a couple of faster growers and say that ten were germinated, then isn't this false information? How can we prove that these are truly unrelated individuals.

M

Hi Michael: I agree with you there. There is a responsibility about the genetic variety of any batch. But then again, how long ago are we actually aware of these differences? During the past 3-4 years or so?. We can't expect to revolutionize the way nepenthes nurseries operate overnight?.
How do we know when the ten clones are propagating at equal ratios? No we don't, but then again it's just a matter of trust. If we can't trust someone else, then how we can build bigger and better things when self-preservation prevails over the common good? or Paranoia starts invading my brain thus, i should seek medical advice. If we can prove that any nursery is doing something wrong, then punishment follows by the lack of trust from customers, followed, by drop in sales, etc. etc. I don't think anybody would commit commercial suicide by selling bad quality plants. They either have to be crazy or super-confident they'll never get caught.

Gus « Last Edit: Feb 9, 2008, 9:13am by agustinfranco »Link to Post - Back to Top Logged rainforestguy
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Re: seed vs tc plants
« Reply #7 on Feb 9, 2008, 2:15pm »

Quote:How do we know when the ten clones are propagating at equal ratios? No we don't,
If I was propagating cuttings of N. ventricosa white, or N. ventricosa Big Mouth, or N. ventricosa black, I would carry that specific name onto the cuttings. How vastly different is this from having specific clones in vitro (in a closed system where mix ups is near impossible to occur) being propagated individually. Suspicion arises when multiple clones exist and they COINCIDENTALLY all are the same sex and very same in form. The seed genome is very diverse in nature. N. "flava" is almost every color but yellow, (well maybe for the TYPE specimen), we have seen every species represent itself as various alter-egos. yet these tc different clones all resemble one another. I would safely say that every N. hamata clone in the wild is as diverse as N. rafflesiana, as is N. alata, as is N. flava. yet the three clones are very dead ringer for one another in form and sex.

M



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Re: seed vs tc plants
« Reply #8 on Feb 9, 2008, 4:20pm »

Hi Michael:

I was checking my plants today and as i have mentioned to some people, some of my plants are flowering. A combination of hybrids vs. species. It's very coincidential that 4 out of the 6 plants are male including the spectabilis X veitchii you posted some time ago.
I can't understand this. If these are hybrids and species why the majority turn out to be males?

Gus
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Re: seed vs tc plants
« Reply #9 on Feb 9, 2008, 6:47pm »
Without getting into the whole TC vs. seed debate, since I feel I covered it in the topic "the miracle of seed":


Quote: If these are hybrids and species why the majority turn out to be males?
Females are (almost) always more costly to produce than males. We see this in vast number in the plant and animal kingdoms. I can think of few examples (eusocial insects) in both kingdoms where males more or less do not exist.
I feel (though I have no "proof" since no one has done a study on it) that most Nepenthes are males. Unfortunately, to my knowledge, they don't display the traits of some genera, which are protandrous, depending on when sufficient resources are available. It's not a fault of TC or seed or any other method...its just how the genus is. If we look at seed sown from a certain grex, no matter the grex, we find, on average, 80%+ to be males. This is one of the reasons I have attempted to see if it is possible to switch genders in the genus. « Last Edit: Feb 9, 2008, 6:49pm by phissionkorps »Link to Post - Back to Top LoggedNatura non facit saltum
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Re: seed vs tc plants
« Reply #10 on Feb 10, 2008, 12:43am »
PK,
Are you saying that......
women are high maintenance???



Quote:
Females are (almost) always more costly to produce than males.

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Re: seed vs tc plants
« Reply #11 on Feb 10, 2008, 4:55am »
Well, Ron: Thanks for your input. At least we may agree that there is no ill-purpose (from commercial growers)behind the high ratios of male Neps vs. female Neps on most private collections.

Gus « Last Edit: Feb 10, 2008, 4:56am by agustinfranco »Link to Post - Back to Top Logged phissionkorps
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Re: seed vs tc plants
« Reply #12 on Feb 10, 2008, 12:32pm »
I think the only way that would happen is if they all got together and decided to make some sort of cartel or something...which is pretty far fetched. With higher demand for seed-origin plants recently, and a high demand for females since they hobby began 200 years ago or so, I think all commercial sources are wishing they could offer a ton of female and/or seed grown plants. I'm sure that would rake in a ton of money, not just in terms of volume but price per plant as well.

In regards to hamata, I'm sure there is a ridiculous amount of variation in the wild. For example, IIRC, hairy hamata was found while looking for seed of regular hamata. I would not be at all surprised to see many different colors, probably orange, (solid) purple, blah blah blah. Unfortunately, from what I understand, the hamata location isn't somewhere one can just waltz into willy nilly. This reason is the same as to why we don't see a ton of Papuan/PNG species available in large numbers. Lots of angry guards with AK-47s probably make for a tough time. After all, one does not simply ride into Mordor

A few things I'd like to comment on briefly (I hope):

Someone (Gus?) said something about some of our current species being hybrid in origin. Agreed. I think this is a generally accepted "hypothesis" for quite a few species. I use quotes not because I doubt the hypothesis at all, just that again...someone needs to look at microsatellite DNA and get this stuff sorted out. I've said it before and I'll say it again for prosperity's sake: while some of the genetic studies that have been done on Nepenthes are interesting, they are all totally 100% useless, especially from a phylogenetic perspective. Anyway, about the whole maxima thing...it's totally my personal opinion that the reason we see 50 or whatever different forms of maxima, even in close proximity, is the result of adaptive radiation (thoughts on this? Maybe in another thread?). While I'm sure there is some hybridizing going on, maxima occurs umm...everywhere (more or less). If you built a large enough greenhouse and tries to fill it with every form/geotype of maxima, you'd eb long dead before completing the task. Hell if you started now, in 10 years there'd be a couple other forms, I'm sure. Since it grows everywhere, even with a certain population, it is subjected to microclimates and the like, and maxima obviously is a "species" with lots of plasticity. It probably could be separated into about 5 spp, about 80 if you use the same criteria used to describe those reinwardtiana and gracilis geotypes as "species". Maybe it's time for a name change? What's the word for "play-doh" in Latin?


Quote:If I had a tc clone of a "hybrid" platychila, it would be unethical (to me) to call this platychila. The example of your definition of a species would not satisfy a person who wants a species.
If I bought a clone of a species as the species, with no disclaimer or anything, and it turned out to be a hybrid...I'd be mad. However, if you have a plant that is A X B X B X B X B X B X B X B X B X B X B X B X B X B X B, it would be ludicrous to call it a hybrid. We're talking 14 generations or so. Is it "pure"? No. But show me any Nepenthes that's pure. It can't be done. We can only call something "pure" by matching it to a description, which is based (when done properly!) on an average, or dominant phenotype seen in a population or populations (if they exist and if the description is done right). We can never, even with genetic backing say "this is 100% platychila", unless we Jurassic Park it up somehow and extract DNA from the very first playchila ever made from a piece of amber or something. To me, that is kind of akin to the "chicken or the egg" question. We don't know, and never will.

I think Gus said something about not being able to revolutionize the industry over night. From what I understand, from seed to sale (TC wise), it takes a couple years. I want to say about 4, but I don't do TC myself nor own a nursery, so don't take my word for it. Regardless, I've only been around for about 3 years, and things have gotten vastly better from the time I first started. Things that weren't even in cultivation then are available now, we have many more color/form/location choices etc. Unfortunately it's taking long, and I'm probably one of the most impatient people around....but at least its getting there.



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Re: seed vs tc plants
« Reply #13 on Feb 10, 2008, 2:23pm »

Well Ron, i don't know how it's happened but, for some reason I agree with you 100% on the issues of backcrossing A and B. and the more species are in the neighbouring area the more complex the situation gets. As mentioned before, only species with few neighbouring ones can achieve clonal isolation to the extent that a intentional introduction of pollen from far away areas may result in hybrid plants with distinct morphology than the original species.
I am not sure about how many species are present in India, Madagascar, or Sri Lanka, but
khasiana, madagascariensis, masoalensis, and distillatoria are good candidates for pure genes as there may not be anymore nepenthes around for introgression to occur.

As for those species which continue to backcross with B, or C: at some point in time a homogenization (all plants start looking the same) is achieved and a predominant species may surface( who knows how long it takes, but it's sure not happening overnight).

Gus
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Re: seed vs tc plants
« Reply #14 on Feb 11, 2008, 3:25am »
While a hybrid tc clone will be as commonplace as a seed grown clone. The difference (getting back to my original argument of selling distinct marked clones rather than randomly mass grown plants) is that you would know if you had a fusca-like form or a platychila like form from the clone identification number assigned to it. This random draw is irresponsible and there's no methodology if you're just out to make the fast buck!

People say that tc is fast, cheap and everything "positive," but if it sounds like what you're thinking, and all evidence shows that it's just another ploy in this tangled game of cat and mouse. You're not alone. Being faster and cheaper than seed grown yet you don't hear of any excuses from contamination from septic cultures do you? My what an excuse is that?
M « Last Edit: Feb 12, 2008, 11:16am by rainforestguy »Link to Post - Back to Top Loggedhttp://www.lhnn.proboards107.com/index.cgi phissionkorps
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Re: seed vs tc plants
« Reply #15 on Feb 11, 2008, 9:15am »

Quote:I am not sure about how many species are present in India, Madagascar, or Sri Lanka, but
khasiana, madagascariensis, masoalensis, and distillatoria are good candidates for pure genes as there may not be anymore nepenthes around for introgression to occur.
I hadn't thought of that. However, while say khasiana will certainly be 100% khasiana, there are still a slew of species we wouldn't know their purity. Unless I guess, you crossed everything with khasiana or distillatoria multiple times, then compared them all and were somehow able to root out the purer parent.

Michael,
To be honest, I don't know why genders for most clones are unknown, even though some have flowered. I think it's because no one has gone through and actually recorded them. I have tried to keep everything strait with the clipeata clones, but the only thing that made my job easier is that all of them but 4 are hybrids. It's a daunting task, even with only 2 clones of a species, to record their gender, growth habit, etc. It'd be nice, but I don't have the time or patience to write all of that out. Plus, it would be made even harder by the fact that you'd be depending on hundreds of growers for info
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