Some crazy-huge rafflesianas...

[sooxiwei]

I do agree on cultivation and tissue cloning as a good way for conservation, for my personal concern is, how things are done, take EP as an example, based in Australia, you got to know how difficult it is to get things in and out of Australia, for the price, can't blame them much since there are way too many barrier to get things out or into that country...but aren't they selling seeds grown plant even though it is clone from seeds, for me, you or whoever are into nepenthes keeping, can you imagine how long does it take for a nep to flower? It is not something that flower easily, bare in mind that male and female is not from the same plant(TIMING ISSUES EVEN IF YOU GOT A LARGE QUANTITY LIKE OUR FEW PLAYERS WHO GOT PRISON FOR THEM)...if they were to purposely come over to get a small cut of plants, a cutting or two, how much would it cost them? With all the process of quarantine and so on, you think a cutting or two can survive that process? How long would it take for a nep to flower for them in order for them to pollinate their nep before going for TC...

If we were to religiously believe that the current way to cloning conservation is good enough, then prepare to say bye bye to other variation of a species/hybrid that are going to be burned down during illegal deforestation...AND MOST IMPORTANTLY, TO LIMIT OURSELVES TO WHAT IS THERE TODAY INSTEAD OF IMPROVING FOR A BETTER TOMORROW...

Originally Posted by paphioboy

Siwei, ok this is my view. I do not know if the companies who do TC do return plants to the wild, but if you just take this into consideration... Firstly, what makes you think they take the entire plant? For tissue culture, a small portion of the plant with a meristem is more than enough. So at most (if they are responsible), they would take only 1 or 2 cuttings off the mother plant, but the end result is many many more plants if you compare with taking a cutting, planting it, waiting for it to grow before cutting again to propagate. Think of how much TC companies have reduced pressure on the demand for wild CPs..! Every little plantlet that they sell satisfies the demand of a consumer to obtain a nepenthes, which otherwise would be obtained through illegal means (poaching). Hope this makes you understand better because Tc is definitely a good thing for conservation...

[marcellocatalano]

To Rob, about N. clipeata:
I know there are 3 clones around Europe and in the mass production around the globe. Then I think there are more clones in Indonesia and Malaysia, if I'm not wrong, of course collected not exactely in a legal way, or obtained from poachers in old times, when the dangerous situation of this species wasn't in front of the eyes of most people. If I catch someone who has these "new" (I don't want to use negative words) clones, I would not buy them, unless they are going to die in the hands of this person. I would explain this guy that these plants are of low commercial value, but very high conservation value. I would try to find some place or institution where these plants can be collected all together and kept protected, possibly with the 3 "old" clones. If the guy who owns the plants doesn't want to do that himself, I would ask the price and maybe ask the cp community to give a contribute. But again, IF the plants are going to die in the hands of this person. If this person is a nep grower, let's just help him to keep the plants alive, let's buy the 3 "old" clones and let's keep all the plants close so that when they flower we make seeds. Or, in any case, let's freeze the pollen when a male flowers. Knowing more details would help

Sooxiwei, of course in all the world's associations happens what you said (fighting, politics etc), it's natural in a large group of people, it also happens in every single forum I know, regarding any kind of topic, it's called "community" But the worse mistake I've seen people doing here in my country, and in other countries, in societies, in politics, in the world etc, is saying "eeh, let's wait, let's see, time is needed, we'll see, maybe...". That's the tunnel that brings to the great Nothing As you suggest, start a new initiative, here are some easy ideas for a good start, for you or anybody who wants to start (guys, I would found the Malaysian cp Society myself, but I'm italian, come on, I'm sure you can do it yourself!):
-open a new forum, in malaysian language, dedicated to all the growers of carnivorous plants in Malaysia. Post a message in other malaysian plant forums saying that you just created this forum.
-do the same thing on facebook, again in malaysian language.
-when you're all friends, organize a meeting somewhere, possibly somewhere where there is a cp collection. A nice weekend, eating and talking all together etc.
-once it's clear which people are the most interested, enthusiastic, organizative etc, form some kind of committee. You can make a magazine sent by email, or with photocopies, collecting money with internet, organize seed banks, conservation projects, up to your fantasy and enthusiasm. It only takes a few hours a month, it's just about enjoying a passion.
-arguing is very frequent in these communities, especially at the beginning, when new equilibers need to be set and everybody wants to speak and be right. So be very patient and don't destroy or ruin the whole community, leaving just because you argue with some people. Stay there, give your help, or wait in silence, but stay there. Remember: the longer you stay, even in silence, the more you will be respected in the future and the more you won't need to stay in silence anymore .

[allenphoon]

Originally Posted by marcellocatalano

start a new initiative, here are some easy ideas for a good start, for you or anybody who wants to start (guys, I would found the Malaysian cp Society myself, but I'm italian, come on, I'm sure you can do it yourself!):
-open a new forum, in malaysian language, dedicated to all the growers of carnivorous plants in Malaysia. Post a message in other malaysian plant forums saying that you just created this forum.
-do the same thing on facebook, again in malaysian language.
-when you're all friends, organize a meeting somewhere, possibly somewhere where there is a cp collection. A nice weekend, eating and talking all together etc.
-once it's clear which people are the most interested, enthusiastic, organizative etc, form some kind of committee. You can make a magazine sent by email, or with photocopies, collecting money with internet, organize seed banks, conservation projects, up to your fantasy and enthusiasm. It only takes a few hours a month, it's just about enjoying a passion.
-arguing is very frequent in these communities, especially at the beginning, when new equilibers need to be set and everybody wants to speak and be right. So be very patient and don't destroy or ruin the whole community, leaving just because you argue with some people. Stay there, give your help, or wait in silence, but stay there. Remember: the longer you stay, even in silence, the more you will be respected in the future and the more you won't need to stay in silence anymore .

Well, it sounds like a good idea..

[rhealk]

Originally Posted by marcellocatalano

To Rob, about N. clipeata:
I would try to find some place or institution where these plants can be collected all together and kept protected, possibly with the 3 "old" clones.
... let's buy the 3 "old" clones and let's keep all the plants close so that when they flower we make seeds. Or, in any case, let's freeze the pollen when a male flowers.

How do you overcome genetic bottleneck from inbreeding?

[marcellocatalano]

Originally Posted by rhealk

How do you overcome genetic bottleneck from inbreeding?

with the so-called culling

Anyway, I'm not the one who invented the "clipeata project", so you shouldn't come to me for specific questions related to this, unless it's just to ask my perspective. The ICPS with its most professional cp scientists is involved in the project since a few years. Personally, before worrying about the bottleneck, I would try to breed the few clones we have. Otherwise we go back to the "we'll see, maybe, we need time, let's talk about it..."

[NepNut]

Hi Cello,
Thanks for the explaination about your views

[rhealk]

Originally Posted by marcellocatalano

with the so-called culling

Anyway, I'm not the one who invented the "clipeata project", so you shouldn't come to me for specific questions related to this, unless it's just to ask my perspective. The ICPS with its most professional cp scientists is involved in the project since a few years. Personally, before worrying about the bottleneck, I would try to breed the few clones we have. Otherwise we go back to the "we'll see, maybe, we need time, let's talk about it..."

Haha, I don't have answer for that too. Nor lots of other conservationists. Its something which zoos all over the world headache with.
Conservation is tricky, you save a species, you need to save their genes too.

[paphioboy]

Originally Posted by sooxiwei

I do agree on cultivation and tissue cloning as a good way for conservation, for my personal concern is, how things are done, take EP as an example, based in Australia, you got to know how difficult it is to get things in and out of Australia, for the price, can't blame them much since there are way too many barrier to get things out or into that country...but aren't they selling seeds grown plant even though it is clone from seeds, for me, you or whoever are into nepenthes keeping, can you imagine how long does it take for a nep to flower? It is not something that flower easily, bare in mind that male and female is not from the same plant(TIMING ISSUES EVEN IF YOU GOT A LARGE QUANTITY LIKE OUR FEW PLAYERS WHO GOT PRISON FOR THEM)...if they were to purposely come over to get a small cut of plants, a cutting or two, how much would it cost them? With all the process of quarantine and so on, you think a cutting or two can survive that process? How long would it take for a nep to flower for them in order for them to pollinate their nep before going for TC...

If we were to religiously believe that the current way to cloning conservation is good enough, then prepare to say bye bye to other variation of a species/hybrid that are going to be burned down during illegal deforestation...AND MOST IMPORTANTLY, TO LIMIT OURSELVES TO WHAT IS THERE TODAY INSTEAD OF IMPROVING FOR A BETTER TOMORROW...

Bare root cuttings of many plants do survive quarantine well enough for entry into Australia and all other countries. I'm not saying that this specifically applies for nepenthes, as I do not know how the propagules for EP are brought into the country in the first place, so I do not want to speculate. But bear in mind that cuttings of agricultural crops such as grapevines are frequently brought through quarantine.

If your statement "How long would it take for a nep to flower for them in order for them to pollinate their nep before going for TC..." is saying that
only the seeds can be used for tissue culture, that is incorrect. Any part of a plant containing a meristem can be used for tissue culture. That includes shoot tips, and also root tips (but less commonly used). So pollination is not absolutely necessary for TC.

By "If we were to religiously believe that the current way to cloning conservation is good enough, then prepare to say bye bye to other variation...", did you think I meant to tissue culture and re-introduce into the wild? I never meant that. What I intended to say was tissue culture plants for public sale, so that wild populations will remain (hopefully) safe from overcollection and other threats.