agustinfranco: clonal variations influences growth pattern

[David]

agustinfranco
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clonal variations influences growth pattern?
« Thread Started on Jan 3, 2008, 6:25pm »

Hi all:

I just wanted to ask anyone what's his/her experience growing N. spectabilis?
As mentioned in other threads, there are several clones from different geographical areas floating around....
Bottom line for some would be: who cares where they come from....as long as they are spectabilis

Well, i'd like to take this opportunity to share my preliminary experience growing this particular species:

Photo 1 clone from sinabung: I am not about to mention the source as my goal is not to create disharmony or infighting. I just want to show you what happened to me.



Plant is about 35-40 cm in diameter with a flower spike but without pitchers. I have had this plant for 2 years already. By the way, a second flower spike is coming up below the growth point.

Photo 2: tendrils without pitchers or malformed pitchers. It's just like it wanted to produce some, but somehow, they get stuck halfway there.




Humidity could be a factor? Perhaps, but I can show you all that i have another clone that in 2 weeks after growing under my conditions, pitchers start to emerge. Different clone, different location



Well, some may argue, perhaps humidity is good enough for the second plant, but not for the first plant. Perhaps that may be the case; however, i also wanted to show you an ephippiata abused by me for about 2.5 years which never produced a pitcher, but after changing growing conditions, it changed its mind and started to produce pitchers. In other words, humidity is pretty well covered.



Your thoughts on the matter would be very much appreciated.

Gus
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Re: clonal variations influences growth pattern?
« Reply #1 on Jan 4, 2008, 1:11am »
Greetings Gus,
You don't want to hear it, but I will say a little about inferior tissue cultured clones. I have since gotten rid of all my tc clones and now only grow seed originals and I can tell you that they grow very well with some variations evident. I have had much better success with seed grown plants showing better adaption to my warmer climate than previously experienced. If I had not grown N. lowii from seed, I would definitely say that N. lowii cannot be grown warm at all! This is not true, while many grow slowly, many have jumped above the rest and have since grown very well for me.
The N. spectabilis I have grown previously and have made rants regarding their poor performance for me are reasons why I have not been too well spoken regarding tc plants in general. I already see many who are successfully growing species seeds with much ease than previously read in text and from these so-called "experts" that seed growing will definitely replace tc plants and already the evidence I have seen are startling as many others are now discovering what I was saying all along.
Before you give up on a species from tc, please try and grow it from seeds. The many photo I have shown are evidence that these plants can be grown (to some extent) and as we strive for superior clones and forms grown from seeds, can we only then be able to grow them well. We don't need another weak clone of a species to represent the entire species. What we need is to have growers continuously make seeds from superior clones of their plants.
We have seen the evidence from EP what can be done in the way to make superior N. ventricosa, truncata and maxima true species from seeds. Why can't we replicate this with other species? The ultimate saving of a species from extinction is not from tc clones, but from true seed original plants.

Michael
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Re: clonal variations influences growth pattern?
« Reply #2 on Jan 4, 2008, 4:25am »
Hi Rainforestguy:

Thanks for your reply. I am very much familiar with your theory and I understand where you are coming from. Let's not forget that in many cases it's the same seed used to grow plants from compost also being used for TC plants.
Whether TC plants selects for weak clones over strong ones, i am still doubtful about the scientific proof, as i can say that both plants shown on the photos are from TC, but from different sources. In any event, the second TC plant is doing pretty well and I have good hopes it'll thrive. As for the first one, i've lost hope.

The message is very clear. Plants can be weak or strong, can produce pitchers or not, regardless of the source. The task of the big commercial nurseries is to start selecting plants for desirable physical traits, and ease to grow under optimal and suboptimal conditions.
Perhaps, as you mentioned earlier, seeds grown compost are under more selective pressure. Only the strong survives, while TC is usually a mix, so care must be taking in identifying strong and desirable plants over undesireable ones.

Let's hope we all have a wonderful new year growing Nepenthes. My sincere wishes to all of you.

Gus « Last Edit: Jan 4, 2008, 4:27am by agustinfranco »Link to Post - Back to Top Logged rainforestguy
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Re: clonal variations influences growth pattern?
« Reply #3 on Jan 4, 2008, 9:25am »
I am not always saying that tc clones are bad. But a clone grown in optimal conditions in vitro can never be the same as an individual grown outside. If I had my choice (and everyone should also be offered that choice) I will ALWAYS pick a seed grown individual over a tc clone any day. I am still needing proof of a seed original to be a weak clone. I have not come across any seed originals that are weak. But in the case of tc plants, I have thrown away a lot of money in keeping them alive or just tossing the poor soul in the compost pile.
There are some vigorous tc clones out there, but unfortunately their representation of some in particular species are not evident or known.
While we have just nipped the iceberg of seeing superior clones from seed originals begin their availability, we should all be so lucky to own seed originals as part of our diversified stock plants for breeding and selection.
More clones of seed originals we should be seeing more of include N. insignis, albomarginata, maxima, eustachya, sumatrana, etc. to name a few.

M
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Re: clonal variations influences growth pattern?
« Reply #4 on Jan 4, 2008, 5:31pm »

Hi Michael:

Thanks again for your feedback. You know what?. I was thinking for a moment and started to imagine what would happen if all the plants sold by nurseries were from T.C. I thought perhaps that genetic variability may be reduced due to the selection of clones. Point taken. We may get strong but also weak clones for the plants that manage to grow in culture.
On the other hand, what would happen if we all have only compost grown plants. According to your hypothesis, the resultant plants would be sturdy mostly with a lot of genetic variability.
But then, I thought "If there is room for genetic variability, there may be also room for hybrids to show up". Since we can't go back and check these, we may get stuck with hybrids.

In the end, we need a balance between TC and seed grown and constant interaction between the two. Compost grown plants may inherit more vigour and health, but these may go unchecked for possible hybridization. one may get hybrids from TC plants, but then again, because of the selection of clones, plants suspected to be the species can be isolated and further cultured. In conclusion, a balance is needed to keep the general health of plants with the appropriate phenotypical characteristics.

Gee, i hope i did not confuse you all.

Gus
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Re: clonal variations influences growth pattern?
« Reply #5 on Jan 5, 2008, 4:12am »

Quote:More clones of seed originals we should be seeing more of include N. insignis
I've got about 20 seedlings right now in fact

The point about getting more hybrids from compost grown plants vs. TC'd plants makes absolutely no sense. Do they both not flower, and do they not all readily hybridize with each other? Hybrids aren't just going to "pop up" lol. The only way they would be introduced is from wild collected seed, and can subsequently be removed. If seed is wild collected, regardless of whether the seed is compost grown or TC'd, there's a good chance for hybrids to appear. when these plants reach maturity and flower, if in an uncontrolled environment with other Nepenthes, there is an exactly equal chance of plants from either source hybridizing.
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Re: clonal variations influences growth pattern?
« Reply #6 on Jan 5, 2008, 11:04am »
Yes PK, This is what I am trying to say about SEED grown originals, if we hand pollinate them from plants (selected superior clones from plants growing in our collection) then we an have true selected strains of species, as is evident in N. truncata, ventricosa, maxima, etc. in EP's seedlings.
The wild collected seed dilemma is already present in tc plants replicating these errors as we have seen in platychila, clipeata (MT's sources), burbidgeae x edwardsiana (MT) originally as a true burbidgeae, and so on.
The difference in compost grown originals is if a hybrid existed from wild collected seed it will be just that single individual as opposed to a myriad of clones all from that same hybrid individual (in vitro).

M
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