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3rd July 2008, 03:40 PM
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kianliang87: Question about indoor lighting (Read 619 times)
kianliang87
Full Member  member is offline NewBie    Joined: Mar 2008 Gender: Male  Posts: 103 Location: Bandar Baru Bangi,Sel,M'sia  Question about indoor lighting« Thread Started on 18 Mar, 2008, 13:20 »Hello to all Grand Masters here. I have a question about keeping drosera indoor. From what i had learnt, the plant should be only inches away from the light. Can anyone guide me, how many inches is the minimum and the maximum? Another question is, How bright should the lighting be? I mean the colour temperature of the lights and the watt? Hope to get some answers from you Grand Masters. I have no experience in planting CP. I hope to clear these doubts of mine, so that i don't fail in my first attempt(very soon). Seeds are precious.Lols.  Link to Post - Back to Top  LoggedStudent who loves nature.DavidAdministrator  member is offline  Joined: Dec 2006 Gender: Male Posts: 2,326 Location: Kuala Lumpur Re: Question about indoor lighting« Reply #1 on 18 Mar, 2008, 17:03 »Bassically the nearer it is to the lighting the better. However, you need to consider when the plant sends out flower stalks. The general rule from experts is the lighting should be no further than 10 inches from the plant. To give you an idea of how bright the lights are, if you are using 4 four feet florencent lights (40 watts each) placed about 10 inches above the plants, the plants would only get about 15% of light intensity of the sun at mid day. PLL lights and T5 lights are much better. If you use PLL lights, it would be about 20-30% of the intensity of sunlight. T5 lights are good but a little pricy. Lately I found a shop in KL selling 4-feet T5 light setup at RM300 ++. This is either locally made of made in China. Still too much for me. PLL lights are cheaper. So, you would want to place the lightings as near to the plants as possible and you can increase the intensity by a few more percentage by placing mirrors or reflective materials around the plants to bounce light back on the plants. To utilize whatever little light you are giving your plants, you might also want to put a timer on your lightings to run for 16 hours. If you can't provide a bright enough environment, give them longer periods of light. If you can provide above 15% of the sun's light intensity, you will be able to grow your sundews resonably well. But higher light intensity is better. Hope this helps. « Last Edit: 18 Mar, 2008, 17:14 by David »Link to Post - Back to Top LoggedMy WantlistdomFull Member member is offline Joined: Dec 2006 Gender: Male Posts: 218 Location: Kuala Lumpur, Sentul Re: Question about indoor lighting« Reply #2 on 18 Mar, 2008, 17:26 »Please remember that, there are 2 type of T5. T5 and T5HO (T5High Output). T5HO slighly higher price than T5. And it is brighter than normal T5. Try to get 8000K tube if you can find in the market. So far i saw only ADA PLL or FL tubes are with 8000K. But it is very costly. But worth to invest. You will see the different. Beside that, there are few types of PL tubes. PL-S, PL-C and PL-L. What we are using is PL-L. The most near to 8000K is 6500K. So far only Philip and Osram 865 are with 6500K which you can find in the market easily. Price is around RM20-30 each. Link to Post - Back to Top LoggedMy very first blog. Feel free to comments. www.dominicanrepublica.blogspot.comkianliang87Full Member member is offline NewBie Joined: Mar 2008 Gender: Male Posts: 103 Location: Bandar Baru Bangi,Sel,M'sia Re: Question about indoor lighting« Reply #3 on 18 Mar, 2008, 21:00 »Hi, thanks for the advice. But i still have some doubts, how do we know if the light is brighter type or not? By the Watt? Unfortunately, i had given away both my LIYODA PLL tubes to Anderson from MAC. Today i went to electrical shops, i saw some bulbs which are 6000k and 50 watts, those small and round type of shelf lights. But the light is kinda hot and the light is yellow(if i'm not wrong it's xenon type). Can this be used? I guess PLL is the better option rite? If the shelf lights can be used, then i can put the plants on the shelf with the lights on(plus the timer). Will definitely look great. Like displaying relic. Hehe Link to Post - Back to Top LoggedStudent who loves nature.domFull Member member is offline Joined: Dec 2006 Gender: Male Posts: 218 Location: Kuala Lumpur, Sentul Re: Question about indoor lighting« Reply #4 on 18 Mar, 2008, 21:31 »By the Kelvin/Lumens. But not watt. You need at least 6500K. For vivarium/planted tank hobbyists, 6500-8000K is white. Above 8000K is blue. But for marine hobbyists, they will say 6500-10000K is yellow. 14,000K is white and 20000K is blue. Just ignore what marine fellas said. The bulb you saw is PL-C which we normally use at home on the ceiling, floor lamp, table lamp and toilet.  Try the reliable brand - Philip or Osram. The tube will label as 865. (There are 827 - 2700K and 840 - 4700K)PLL can be found in the lighting shop at Jln Pasar which is next to the RHB or Alliance bank. (Can't remember which bank) And you need to get the e-ballast, connector and reflector to DIY. If you are poor in DIY, then spend a little bit more to get from local fish shop. They are selling all well done lighting set. From FL, PLL to MH. There is a shop located in Kepong. Named as Kim Fatt aquarium. So far they are the only one in town selling the cheapest lighting set. Btw, Anderson got a tumor in his head. First surgery failed and doctor has to stop the surgery due to bleeding non-stop. He is resting at home now and waiting for the coming 2nd surgery. Give him a call then... Link to Post - Back to Top LoggedMy very first blog. Feel free to comments. www.dominicanrepublica.blogspot.comkianliang87Full Member member is offline NewBie Joined: Mar 2008 Gender: Male Posts: 103 Location: Bandar Baru Bangi,Sel,M'sia Re: Question about indoor lighting« Reply #5 on 19 Mar, 2008, 11:13 »Yea, i heard about Anderson. By the way, the light i was refering to is not the PL-C type. It's not those round light that people use for plaster ceilings wor. It's those people use for the shlef display lights. The size is very small 1, around 2 inches in the diameter only wor. If i am not wrong, they use xenon light bulbs, very small type. Can it be used? IF it cant be use then it's ok. I can DIY PLL, i did it before. Link to Post - Back to Top LoggedStudent who loves nature.domFull Member member is offline Joined: Dec 2006 Gender: Male Posts: 218 Location: Kuala Lumpur, Sentul Re: Question about indoor lighting« Reply #6 on 19 Mar, 2008, 11:24 »Oh..ic. I think that type of lighting is not enough to grow your CP. Link to Post - Back to Top LoggedMy very first blog. Feel free to comments. www.dominicanrepublica.blogspot.comkianliang87Full Member member is offline NewBie Joined: Mar 2008 Gender: Male Posts: 103 Location: Bandar Baru Bangi,Sel,M'sia Re: Question about indoor lighting« Reply #7 on 19 Mar, 2008, 23:12 »Ok, thanks alot. I will use 2 PLL then. Link to Post - Back to Top LoggedStudent who loves nature.cindyGlobal Moderator member is offline Joined: Aug 2007 Gender: Female  Posts: 412 Location: Singapore Re: Question about indoor lighting« Reply #8 on 20 Mar, 2008, 16:24 »I used 2 x PLL light (55W) for a 3'x1' area. Most CPs did well under them other than VFT and Sarracenia which tend to die after a while...could be due the heat from the light, too warm over too many months. Even though the intensity of artificial light is lower than sunlight, the intensity is consistent over the number of hours you have it switched on. Sunlight intensity varies throughout the day. So most CPs still are able to thrive. Link to Post - Back to Top Loggedkianliang87Full Member member is offline NewBie Joined: Mar 2008 Gender: Male Posts: 103 Location: Bandar Baru Bangi,Sel,M'sia Re: Question about indoor lighting« Reply #9 on 20 Mar, 2008, 17:23 »Oh, so VFT must be put in a cooler area? Link to Post - Back to Top LoggedStudent who loves nature.artificialivePioneer Member / Global Moderator member is offline  Joined: Dec 2006 Gender: Male Posts: 713 Location: Ayer Keroh, Malacca Re: Question about indoor lighting« Reply #10 on 20 Mar, 2008, 17:44 »As for my case, my VFT seems to be very happy, tanning under direct sunlight all day, from morning to late evening. I dont keep plants indoors, so the case may be different. Besides heat, i *think another important element to keep plant indoors is air circulation. Link to Post - Back to Top Logged[Naj Grow List] --- [Naj Wanted List]cindyGlobal Moderator member is offline Joined: Aug 2007 Gender: Female Posts: 412 Location: Singapore Re: Question about indoor lighting« Reply #11 on 20 Mar, 2008, 20:47 »VFT is fine in full sun with a cooling off period in the night. Outdoor is also more well-ventilated. My VFTs were under lights for 6 months before they gave me problems. But the lights were on a reverse cycle and come on at night. So they don't really have a cooler period at all. Link to Post - Back to Top LoggedartificialivePioneer Member / Global Moderator member is offline Joined: Dec 2006 Gender: Male Posts: 713 Location: Ayer Keroh, Malacca Re: Question about indoor lighting« Reply #12 on 20 Mar, 2008, 21:23 »Yah, true enough Cindy! The temperature at night is much cooler outdoors, compared to indoor night temperature. Link to Post - Back to Top Logged[Naj Grow List] --- [Naj Wanted List]plantloverSenior Member  member is offline Now I'm getting more experienced Joined: Jan 2008 Gender: Male Posts: 484 Location: Batu Pahat, Johor Re: Question about indoor lighting« Reply #13 on 21 Mar, 2008, 13:30 »I put my VFT under direct sunlight(not sure how long, maybe 4-5 hours). They receive direct rain and a cool night. They seem to be happy. Very easy to get cold nights because I live in front of a small forest. And very humid too. Link to Post - Back to Top LoggedAaronedmund83Junior Member  member is online Joined: Mar 2008 Gender: Male Posts: 94 Location: Muar, Damansara Re: Question about indoor lighting« Reply #14 on 25 Mar, 2008, 13:21 » Quote: By the Kelvin/Lumens. But not watt. You need at least 6500K. For vivarium/planted tank hobbyists, 6500-8000K is white. Above 8000K is blue. But for marine hobbyists, they will say 6500-10000K is yellow. 14,000K is white and 20000K is blue. Just ignore what marine fellas said. Is it possible for put on one blue and one white ? Here got a silly question 2 * 36watt = 72watt then if 2 *6500k = 13000k?  Link to Post - Back to Top LoggedEdmund ^^vhttp://www.flickr.com/photos/edmund830808/ ~~DrosEra F@n == CepH F@n~~ artificialive Pioneer Member / Global Moderator member is offline Joined: Dec 2006 Gender: Male Posts: 713 Location: Ayer Keroh, Malacca Re: Question about indoor lighting« Reply #15 on 25 Mar, 2008, 13:38 »Hello Edmund, I dont think it will result to 13000K. Heres an example: 100 Celsius water + 100 Celsius water = 100 Celsius water, not 200 Celsius water Let me know if I'm wrong..!  « Last Edit: 25 Mar, 2008, 13:39 by artificialive »Link to Post - Back to Top Logged[Naj Grow List] --- [Naj Wanted List]domFull Member member is offline Joined: Dec 2006 Gender: Male Posts: 218 Location: Kuala Lumpur, Sentul Re: Question about indoor lighting« Reply #16 on 25 Mar, 2008, 17:00 » Quote: Quote: By the Kelvin/Lumens. But not watt. You need at least 6500K. For vivarium/planted tank hobbyists, 6500-8000K is white. Above 8000K is blue. But for marine hobbyists, they will say 6500-10000K is yellow. 14,000K is white and 20000K is blue. Just ignore what marine fellas said. Is it possible for put on one blue and one white ? Here got a silly question 2 * 36watt = 72watt then if 2 *6500k = 13000k? Edmund, I don't think blue color tube will be good to any CP. It will just enhance the color of the CP for our eyes only. Just like if you are using it for the aquarium. You will see the green plant more greenish. 6500K is not = 13000K. Are you failed on your math? hahaha... I have not yet see any 13,000K tube/bulb in the market. Link to Post - Back to Top LoggedMy very first blog. Feel free to comments. www.dominicanrepublica.blogspot.comtarenceGlobal Moderator member is offline Joined: Apr 2007 Gender: Male Posts: 1,523 Location: Bandar Kinrara , Puchong Re: Question about indoor lighting« Reply #17 on 25 Mar, 2008, 17:06 »i think what Edmund means is using two 6500k lights...would it be equal to 13000k effect. Link to Post - Back to Top LoggedmilossulaNew Member member is offline Joined: Aug 2007 Posts: 17 Location: Czech republic Re: Question about indoor lighting« Reply #18 on 25 Mar, 2008, 17:48 »Dont worry with color temperature. This is not important too much. Use coool white fluorescent lamps. The special lamps for growing plants work much more worse than conventional fluorescent lamps at the same power wattage ( practical experiences of many growers here ). Link to Post - Back to Top LoggedMilos Sula milossulaNew Member member is offline Joined: Aug 2007 Posts: 17 Location: Czech republic Re: Question about indoor lighting« Reply #19 on 25 Mar, 2008, 17:52 »BTW if you want to have VFT with RED traps you will need to add blue lamp ( near UV-A or UV-A ) which will stimulate production of anthocyanins. Link to Post - Back to Top LoggedMilos Sulakianliang87Full Member  member is offline NewBie    Joined: Mar 2008 Gender: Male  Posts: 103 Location: Bandar Baru Bangi,Sel,M'sia  Re: Question about indoor lighting« Reply #20 on 25 Mar, 2008, 19:27 » Quote: VFT is fine in full sun with a cooling off period in the night. Outdoor is also more well-ventilated. My VFTs were under lights for 6 months before they gave me problems. But the lights were on a reverse cycle and come on at night. So they don't really have a cooler period at all. Hi cindy, May i know what type of brand is your PLL tube? I can't seem to find Philips brand for PLL. They only have LIYODA, a china brand. Link to Post - Back to Top  LoggedStudent who loves nature.kianliang87Full Member member is offline NewBie Joined: Mar 2008 Gender: Male Posts: 103 Location: Bandar Baru Bangi,Sel,M'sia Re: Question about indoor lighting« Reply #21 on 25 Mar, 2008, 22:16 »Does anyone know the lumens for Philips 36Watt/55watts PLL lights? As i know, normal flourescent 36watt light has 3250 lumens rite? So, to imitate 15% of sunlight intensity, we need 4 * 3250 =13,000 lumens rite? Wat about 2 pieces of PLL, will they produce as much lumens as 4 flourescent light? Link to Post - Back to Top LoggedStudent who loves nature.domFull Member member is offline Joined: Dec 2006 Gender: Male Posts: 218 Location: Kuala Lumpur, Sentul Re: Question about indoor lighting« Reply #22 on 26 Mar, 2008, 9:04 »Guess he is has typo error. 6500K = 13000 Lumens. Basically the lighting for CP is almost the same for aquatic plants. I am planning to use MH which with 8000K for the CP terrarium. Link to Post - Back to Top LoggedMy very first blog. Feel free to comments. www.dominicanrepublica.blogspot.comkianliang87Full Member member is offline NewBie Joined: Mar 2008 Gender: Male Posts: 103 Location: Bandar Baru Bangi,Sel,M'sia Re: Question about indoor lighting« Reply #23 on 26 Mar, 2008, 10:27 »I thought, for colour temperature, 6500k will be sufficient. But my concern is the lumen, how much do we need? As recommended by david, we should at least use 4 four feet long fluorescent tube. Each tube generates 3250 lumen. So 3250 * 4 = 13,000 lumen. How much lumen does 36 watts/55watts PLL generates? Link to Post - Back to Top LoggedStudent who loves nature.kianliang87Full Member member is offline NewBie Joined: Mar 2008 Gender: Male Posts: 103 Location: Bandar Baru Bangi,Sel,M'sia Re: Question about indoor lighting« Reply #24 on 26 Mar, 2008, 10:39 »Dom, in aquascaping we calculate the lighting by Watt/Gallon rite? If i am not wrong, watt is not important in CP, because lumen is the important part. Some 22 watt philips lights only emits 1050 lumen, but a 36 watt philips fluorescent light emits 3250 lumen. So, the ratio of lumen : watt is not the same for different type of light tube. The important thing is the lumen, not the watt rite? Correct me if i am wrong. Then if i am correct, what should be the minimum lumen to grow CP? 4 * 4feet fluorescent = 13,000 lumen. Is 13,000 lumen the minimum? Can we use other lights, PLC,PLD, PLL or any other type to replace the fluorescent as long as we get 13000 lumen? Sorry for the long questions. Lols. Link to Post - Back to Top LoggedStudent who loves nature.domFull Member member is offline Joined: Dec 2006 Gender: Male Posts: 218 Location: Kuala Lumpur, Sentul Re: Question about indoor lighting« Reply #25 on 26 Mar, 2008, 12:13 »The watt is important too. You must check on the model. Like Philip 36Watt 827 which is yellowish and it is with lower lumen. 36Watt 865 with higher lumen. Then 55Watt 827 has different lumen with 36Watt 827. As same 865. If the 4ft FL tube with 13,000 lumen. I guess it is 865 cool day light model. If you get warm day light type, you will have lower lumen. In aquascaping, watt per gallon is just a theory for a newbie to follow. But if you know more about aquatic plants. You will know that different aquatic plant need different type of lighting. And you will not follow the watt per gallon theory for your aquarium anymore. Basically for almost all of the CP need bright light. Only different temperature and humidity need to take care of.. If you are able to provide brighter lighting, then you need to take care of the temperature and humidity for highland species. Same like aquatic plants, you can give high lighting. But then you still need to take care of the water temperature. Link to Post - Back to Top LoggedMy very first blog. Feel free to comments. www.dominicanrepublica.blogspot.comedmund83Junior Member  member is online Joined: Mar 2008 Gender: Male Posts: 94 Location: Muar, Damansara Re: Question about indoor lighting« Reply #26 on 26 Mar, 2008, 16:52 »Wah...  that clear my doubt already.... Not only Watt but lumen also. so CP plant require how many lumen in 8 hours? Is it the PLL cover box got write down how lumen it produces? sorry i throw the tube cover  Link to Post - Back to Top LoggedEdmund ^^vhttp://www.flickr.com/photos/edmund830808/ ~~DrosEra F@n == CepH F@n~~ kianliang87 Full Member member is offline NewBie Joined: Mar 2008 Gender: Male Posts: 103 Location: Bandar Baru Bangi,Sel,M'sia Re: Question about indoor lighting« Reply #27 on 26 Mar, 2008, 17:28 » ..Yea, now i understand already. Thanks alot ya. Btw, do you have any guide for the minimum lumen required? 13,000 lumen? Link to Post - Back to Top LoggedStudent who loves nature.domFull Member member is offline Joined: Dec 2006 Gender: Male Posts: 218 Location: Kuala Lumpur, Sentul Re: Question about indoor lighting« Reply #28 on 26 Mar, 2008, 17:40 »This question pass to experts in here to answer. Since i am not the CP expert. Edmund, the PLL and FL tube paper box got mentioned about the lumen. Link to Post - Back to Top LoggedMy very first blog. Feel free to comments. www.dominicanrepublica.blogspot.comkianliang87Full Member member is offline NewBie Joined: Mar 2008 Gender: Male Posts: 103 Location: Bandar Baru Bangi,Sel,M'sia Re: Question about indoor lighting« Reply #29 on 26 Mar, 2008, 17:56 »Ok, thanks alot again. Link to Post - Back to Top LoggedStudent who loves nature.edmund83Junior Member member is online Joined: Mar 2008 Gender: Male Posts: 94 Location: Muar, Damansara Re: Question about indoor lighting« Reply #30 on 27 Mar, 2008, 16:55 »Thanks dom Link to Post - Back to Top LoggedEdmund ^^vhttp://www.flickr.com/photos/edmund830808/ ~~DrosEra F@n == CepH F@n~~ kianliang87 Full Member member is offline NewBie Joined: Mar 2008 Gender: Male Posts: 103 Location: Bandar Baru Bangi,Sel,M'sia Re: Question about indoor lighting« Reply #31 on 27 Mar, 2008, 20:34 »Look at this link 1000Watt philips light bulb for plants http://pond-o-mania.com/browseproducts/Philips-Agro-Lite-1000-Watt-HPS-lamp.html Link to Post - Back to Top LoggedStudent who loves nature.domFull Member member is offline Joined: Dec 2006 Gender: Male Posts: 218 Location: Kuala Lumpur, Sentul Re: Question about indoor lighting« Reply #32 on 28 Mar, 2008, 10:28 »1000W and operates on standard high pressure sodium ballasts.  Dude, you need to spare RM1000 - 3000 to get this. USD$105 - for a bulb (and not yet include the import tax, govr tax and delivery charge) The high pressure sodium ballasts (with s behind...not sure it need 1 ballast or 2 or 3 ballasts to operate. A well done casing with this ballast will cost around RM1000-2000 easily.) As from what I know, 400W with 20,000K Metal Halide with reflector which use on the Marine aquarium. DIY only and cost you around RM1200 easily. It can support up to 4-5 footer aquarium which with 2-2.5 footer height. The affect giving to the aquarium is just like what you can see while you are diving. Able to grow SPS and other high-end coral. The Metal Halide using at the road side advertising board is 500W. The whole set cost around RM1500-2000. Depends on the brand. Unless you get the Halogen bulb which is yellowish with lower lumen/kelvin. Ace Hardware selling the Halogen bulb, casing and stand for RM99 only. Beside all the $$$ and Lumens/Kelvins which you wanted to. You need to take care of the heat which is generate from the lighting. The air circulation, temperature and etc. Link to Post - Back to Top LoggedMy very first blog. Feel free to comments. www.dominicanrepublica.blogspot.comcaseyhooFull Member member is offline  Joined: Jul 2007 Gender: Male Posts: 217 Location: Kuala Lumpur, Malaysia Re: Question about indoor lighting« Reply #33 on 28 Mar, 2008, 10:43 »I personnally feel that using PLL/PLC/PLS/FL is more then enough (cheap mar  )... Important is Lumens/Kelvins. There is not fix judges on how many watt you need (there is many factor affect it, like distance, how long you on the light, what is the Lumens/Kelvins). Link to Post - Back to Top LoggedBest Regards,KC Hoo Wanted List They are nice : D. aliciae, D. brevicornis, D. derbyensis, D. falconeri, D. lanata, D. villosa, D. lowriei, D. menziesiikianliang87 Full Member member is offline NewBie Joined: Mar 2008 Gender: Male Posts: 103 Location: Bandar Baru Bangi,Sel,M'sia Re: Question about indoor lighting« Reply #34 on 28 Mar, 2008, 13:27 »Hehe, yea lor. That day i was browsing through the net, then i found this 1000 watt bulb. So i post here lor. Never intend to buy. Btw, i found a 250WATT Metal Halide bulb in my house. But i guess i'll just DIY PLL/PLC lights la. Wanted to try using 4 pieces of 18Watts PLC lights(those people use as downlight from ceiling) Dunno can or not leh? the bulbs are 6500K and 920 Lumen each, cool day light. What about 4 * 2 ft FL lights? Will it be enough? I plant to focus the lights on a small area only. Around 1 square ft area can already. Link to Post - Back to Top LoggedStudent who loves nature.kianliang87Full Member member is offline NewBie Joined: Mar 2008 Gender: Male Posts: 103 Location: Bandar Baru Bangi,Sel,M'sia Re: Question about indoor lighting« Reply #35 on 28 Mar, 2008, 14:00 »I think i found the answers to my questions already. Hehe, I saw a long long ago post from David, he has a 2 ft terrarium with 4 * 2 ft FL lights. So I guess, 4 * 2ft FL or 4 PLC also same lor...should be ok... Link to Post - Back to Top LoggedStudent who loves nature.domFull Member member is offline Joined: Dec 2006 Gender: Male Posts: 218 Location: Kuala Lumpur, Sentul Re: Question about indoor lighting« Reply #36 on 28 Mar, 2008, 14:59 »Kian Liang, It is depends on how high you hang the lighting above your terrarium. FL can cover wider. But the PL-C is not. Unless you can hang it higher. Link to Post - Back to Top LoggedMy very first blog. Feel free to comments. www.dominicanrepublica.blogspot.comkianliang87Full Member member is offline NewBie Joined: Mar 2008 Gender: Male Posts: 103 Location: Bandar Baru Bangi,Sel,M'sia Re: Question about indoor lighting« Reply #37 on 28 Mar, 2008, 18:33 »Oh, but if i hang it higher, then the light not so intense already lor? Hmm, I know lightings are very important. Last time when i look at my aquatic plants pearling, Wow, the feelings are just so nice, so proud. Ok la, i try to hang around 8 inches from the top of the plants, using one 20W PLC warm white and one 14W PLC cool day light. Hehe, actually i get all this from my house. So it's free. I will try to use this light for the plant for a while first. If not enough, then i add another two 2 feet FL. But my seeds has yet to arrive yet. Haha, but i am already DIYing everything now. Very "Sam Kap". Link to Post - Back to Top LoggedStudent who loves nature.
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